Originally posted by relentless1your reasoning makes absolutely no sense. Does that mean that spider-man can beat any low herald because he once beat firelord? You're supposed to use logic and reason to discern whether or not a feat is PIS or if it's something that a character is actually capable of accomplishing.
here you go, attempting to downplay batmans feats again, who cares how many? he's done it, ergo he could do it to daredevil no problem
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batman can vanish not just from sight, bht from all other senses.
DC trying too hard to hard to make him relevant in a team of supermen (and woman).
He can mask the sound of his heartbeat? Mask the scent of his body? Mask the vibrations in air flow as he moves? All of this in a 15 x 15 enclosed space against someone whos specific ability is sensing everything? I can't roll my eyes high enough.
I don't care if Batmans done it multiple times, it can still be PIS.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why?
Account for it.
Account for the stealth so great a being who can hear a Flea fart a galaxy away was unable to 'detect' him. What's the answer? He's an extremely healthy peak human man, people can reduce the heart-rate, demonstrably, that's fine, but do reduce the actual sound of the pump? LOL, account for it, base it on something more than just, he's really really stealthy. It's PIS.
As for it being viable in the context of THIS fight, well, can't matt echo-locate anyway? Batman can't exactly phase is body intangible, he's a physical presence in an enclosed space, he is detectable by someone who a) sharing the space and knows he's there, and b) party to the same stealth techniques and training.
don't get me wrong, I think batman wins, but not through anything so convoluted as vanishing his Physical presence in the ring and KOing Matt with a well placed one shot. You can get that shit right the **** outa here. He wins, through toughness, will and skill. Nothing supernatural about it, and no PIS feats warranted.
Originally posted by Juk3n
Account for it.Account for the stealth so great a being who can hear a Flea fart a galaxy away was unable to 'detect' him. What's the answer? He's an extremely healthy peak human man, people can reduce the heart-rate, demonstrably, that's fine, but do reduce the actual sound of the pump? LOL, account for it, base it on something more than just, he's really really stealthy. It's PIS.
As for it being viable in the context of THIS fight, well, can't matt echo-locate anyway? Batman can't exactly phase is body intangible, he's a physical presence in an enclosed space, he is detectable by someone who a) sharing the space and knows he's there, and b) party to the same stealth techniques and training.
don't get me wrong, I think batman wins, but not through anything so convoluted as vanishing his Physical presence in the ring and KOing Matt with a well placed one shot. You can get that shit right the **** outa here. He wins, through toughness, will and skill. Nothing supernatural about it, and no PIS feats warranted.
I can go even better than that.
Account for:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batman, easily. Him being Batman alone is already superhuman.As I've said before:
Imagine a celebrity famous for doing nothing except being a rich heir to a fortune, and a party animal. In effect, Paris Hilton.
Now imagine that person also has the business smarts of a Bill Gates.
So far, so good. Ashton Kutcher is like this, after all.
Now Paris Hilton, is also a master of 127 different martial arts. Something that some people take decades just to master one or two.
Ninja Paris Hilton, also holds multiple degrees in engineering, forensic sciences, applied mechanics etc etc etc. And is able to take others' work apart, not just Earth tech, but also Kryptonian/Thanagarian/Martian/Apokolipton etc tech, and understand it.
Ninja Paris, PhDx10, ALSO speaks five or six different languages, fluently, fluently enough she could easily disguise herself (another skill she's learnt, btw), and blend in anywhere in the world.
All by the age of 35.
And is also a master escape artist.
And is an Olympic level gymnast, powerlifter, and is pretty decent and sprinting AND marathons.
And can KO horses.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh, I forgot - Ninja Paris Hilton, in the course of her studies around the world, training with the worst criminals and assassins the world has to offer, attending the finest universities money can buy - is able to do all of this secretly. Not one of her classmates will remember her, nor will any of the assasins/criminals attempt to blackmail her.She will one day suddenly pop back in NYC, nobody will know where she's been (even though you could do so by just checking academic records etc), and a few months later, a shadowy vigilante will suddenly appear.
Batman is nothing but PIS. You cannot pick and choose which bits you accept, and which you don't.
None of that accounts for the ability to mask ones body odour.
None of that accounts for the ability to quieten the function of your automatic bodily functions.
None of it accounts for masking your physical earthly presence in an enclosed space against a person with superhuman (in supermans case to the 100000th degree) senses. Everything else I can accept. Batman having matter manipulation abilities advanced enough to enable him to achieve, with his feet, a sound while walking that emits less audibility than the voice of a human 10000 miles away I CANNOT. That's not Ninja training , that's molecular manipulation, and it's also PIS.
Originally posted by Juk3n
None of that accounts for the ability to mask ones body odour.None of that accounts for the ability to quieten the function of your automatic bodily functions.
None of it accounts for masking your physical earthly presence in an enclosed space against a person with superhuman (in supermans case to the 100000th degree) senses. Everything else I can accept. Batman having matter manipulation abilities advanced enough to enable him to achieve, with his feet, a sound while walking that emits less audibility than the voice of a human 10000 miles away I CANNOT. That's not Ninja training , that's molecular manipulation, and it's also PIS.
No, I mean, why do you stop at just his stealth abilities?
EVERYTHING about Batman is PIS. None of what he can do, is explainable by him being peak human. No mere human can do what he does.
Why do you accept a person who has the ability to pass themselves off as a ditzy party animal (IOW, who'd attend every single red carpet event, be tabloid fodder etc), yet:
[list=1]
[*]holds multiple advanced technical degrees (from the finest universities in the world),
[*]is also an Olympic gymnast,
[*] sprinter,
[*]marathon runner,
[*]weightlifter,
[*](potentially) swimmer,
[*]can act with such conviction they can pass themselves off as hobos, or street thugs (e.g. Bruce with his Matches Malone persona), as well as use convincing makeup to disguise their entire face and mannerisms
[*] speak multiple languages fluently, some (like Japanese) fluently enough to even detect accents
[*]be a skilled escape artist rivaling Houdini (who himself needed his entire lifetime to perfect his skills
[*]be an incredibly skilled computer hacker (he hacked NSA database etc before)
[*]oh, and not only knows, but has mastered 127 different martial arts styles from around the world
[/list]
All by the age of 35?
So again, my question: Why do you question his stealth abilities, and not the rest? You cannot pick and choose. Either everything he does is PIS, or none of it is. DC have shown time and time again (so not like Panther and Surfer, or Spidey and Firelord) that Batman can and DOES do the things he does. In canon comics.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Wolverine is as good as Bruce in H2H imo, CA is close enough.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
[QUOTE=15391829]Originally posted by Jmanghan
[B]Bruce is VERY VERY stealthy, DD will already be taking punches before he can even figure out where Bruce is.
An octagon mat is easy to be quiet on. If Bruce figures out his radar sense, he'll use that to his advantage.
Matt can't detect Bruce if he can't hear him, and there is a very good chance Bruce can, and will, move around without making any noise.
The only way this can even be a fair fight is if there's a crowd around, and lots of noise.
Otherwise, forget it.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85So again, my question: Why do you question his stealth abilities, and not the rest?
Because his "stealth" abilities bleed over into the suspension of physics in his personal favour. So by that reasoning it's perfectly reasonable to pass his most high-end stealth feats off as PIS.
The mechanics of sneaking up on Superman require molecular control that is beyond ANY unamped human, period.
and the reason I focus on his "stealth" above all else is because its easy to suspend disbelief in him being an absolute martial arts prodigy, I can accept that it is within Bruce Waynes character to be able to retain learned knowledge to a superhuman degree. Some people are just that wired. All the degrees, all the variations on a punch and kick he's learned. Some people learn to play the guitar in a couple of weeks and are concert ready IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS. And that's in the real world, so I can grant Batman a few weeks per MA style mastering, because brains control knowledge, and superlatively wired child prodigy brains retain more than others. His learned and applied knowledge doesn't raise as much dispute (to me) as a footstep that "literally" makes no sound. Or a heartbeat that "literally" beats in silence. Those things are not learned, they are attributed by PIS, to a being whom has no business being able to accomplish them.
Put it this way. If Silver Surfer demonstrated the ability to make all aspects of himself absolutely silent, as if they were in a vacuum. We would attribute this to the molecular control of various magnetic, and cosmic wavelengths, you might say it would be fairly easily achieveable, right? Well now were attributing that same feat to a human being. Theres no justification for it to be taken as anything other than PIS. The reasoning "he's done it before" carries no weight.
And it's not Batman hate either, theres no justification for steve rogers out racing a bullet other than PIS and writer wank. Theres no justification for Cassie Cain moving at mach 3 without any outside amps. Some things we as readers have to self justify, and I justify those types of feats as...PIS.
Originally posted by Juk3n
Because his "stealth" abilities bleed over into the suspension of physics in his personal favour. So by that reasoning it's perfectly reasonable to pass his most high-end stealth feats off as PIS.The mechanics of sneaking up on Superman require molecular control that is beyond ANY unamped human, period.
and the reason I focus on his "stealth" above all else is because its easy to suspend disbelief in him being an absolute martial arts prodigy, I can accept that it is within Bruce Waynes character to be able to retain learned knowledge to a superhuman degree. Some people are just that wired. All the degrees, all the variations on a punch and kick he's learned. Some people learn to play the guitar in a couple of weeks and are concert ready IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS. And that's in the real world, so I can grant Batman a few weeks per MA style mastering, because brains control knowledge, and superlatively wired child prodigy brains retain more than others. His learned and applied knowledge doesn't raise as much dispute (to me) as a footstep that "literally" makes no sound. Or a heartbeat that "literally" beats in silence. Those things are not learned, they are attributed by PIS, to a being whom has no business being able to accomplish them.
Put it this way. If Silver Surfer demonstrated the ability to make all aspects of himself absolutely silent, as if they were in a vacuum. We would attribute this to the molecular control of various magnetic, and cosmic wavelengths, you might say it would be fairly easily achieveable, right? Well now were attributing that same feat to a human being. Theres no justification for it to be taken as anything other than PIS. The reasoning "he's done it before" carries no weight.
And it's not Batman hate either, theres no justification for steve rogers out racing a bullet other than PIS and writer wank. Theres no justification for Cassie Cain moving at mach 3 without any outside amps. Some things we as readers have to self justify, and I justify those types of feats as...PIS.
I take your point - but it wasn't 'just' learning MAs, or people who become concert ready in a few weeks. It's EVERYTHING all thrown together.
It's physical as well as mental. A guy who is able to sprint (whilst in full gear). Yet can bench and squat more than the world records. AND can keep this up over looong distances. How many powerlifters have that kind of speed AND endurance? Or, how many marathon runners have that kind of power and strength? Olympic level gymnastics on top of that? Sure, gymnasts are strong as hell - but they aren't 6'5 powerlifter/sprinters who have photographic memories and can take advanced, out of this world (Apokoliptian) tech apart and actually modify it (as DCnU Bats has done). By the age of 35.
Is it PIS? Yes. No human can do what he does. He does it because the writers want it to be so.
But my argument is that it should be allowed - because everything else about Batman is unbelievable in real world standards.
Originally posted by maxivitopowe
Why are you talking about ninja vanishing? They are in an mma octagon
Because of things like this:
Or this:
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/bat%20pics%202/batstealth-azreal27.jpg
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Stealth/jsa31-baterrific3.jpg
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Stealth/batmansuperman15-batstealth.jpg
IOW, people are literally staring at him - and he disappears. Stupid? Sure.
Not that it matters much. Daredevil is blind.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Is it PIS? Yes. No human can do what he does. He does it because the writers want it to be so.
But my argument is that it should be allowed - because everything else about Batman is unbelievable in real world standards.
I get it, and really you've already won the argument, because those PISY stealth feats ARE allowed. But I just can't agree with them in the same category as the rest. People , small guys even are ABNORMALLY strong, it happens, genetics are on their side, and people are abnormally smart, it happens, genetics are on their side. So here we have a comic where a character is ALL THING S EXCELLENT in humanity in regards to speed, strength and brains. Fine, it COULD happen. Not to that degree, but we can have human bodybuilders who hold multiple degrees and have learned multiple martial arts AND who are insanely agile and quick. Those things all in one person ARE unique and special, but they're also not TOO farfetched.
Batman is just a large exaggeration of that. And because it's a comic, I can accepts it. But THOSE abilities are CLEARLY defined. Right? Those traits, however exaggerated they are, are GROUNDED enough to pass without throwing up a red flag. Because even having all that knowledge he's acquired, he is still susceptible to the laws of frickin physics, EVEN IF THEY ARE COMIC BOOK PHYSICS. So him lifting a Ton under duress, can be granted. He's batman. Him falling 3 stories and suffering no lasting damage, granted. Because these are just exaggerations of real world scenerios. They have grounding, of a sort.
Control over the audio-spectrum however is NOT something attributed to any human ever in existence, to any degree. A man can lift 250kg in real life, so I can suspend my disbelief that a COMIC book man can lift more. Usain Bolt can run +30 mph, so I can suspend disbelief that a comicbook man can run faster. No human can mute the sound of his heart. Or the friction of his Lung lining against his ribcage as he slowly breathes. No human can have a negative, vacuum like affect on the air pressure around him as he moves, no matter how stealthy. Theres no gounding for those abilities because they do not come from a place of physical skill mastery, they are transcendent of humanity, so I do not grant them to batman, outside of PIS. And personally I don't think we should on a vs board.
