Armed Israeli Citizen vs Palestinian Terrorist

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That would be a pretty stupid thing to say about me, seeing as I am a conservative voter. I close the extremist threads on both sides- as you would know if you were paying attention- because they are stupid. Your attempt to draw a parallel there with that I just said about you is ridiculous. Your behaviour, in particular the vehemence of your reply to FA, indicates your biased stance.

It's hard to take it as fact your idea they are so widely condemned when people behind these bombings became, say, Prime Minister of Israel. This is not exactly evidence of widespread public condemnation. It's less than a decade since the hotel bombing was celebrated as a major achievement. You might say one thing- the evidence I see, including of that of talking to many jews, says otherwise. They of course, described it as freedom fighting, but we all know that's just wordplay.

Simply put- I do not remotely trust you as a source on this one, and you are clearly ignorant of the facts.

If you want to mean that, that's fine- but FA's original contention that terrorism was an active part in Israel's creation is simply correct, and your response was hasty and unhelpful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence#Condemnation_as_terrorism

Simply repeating that I'm biased doesn't make it so.

Well I think it would be very helpful in future if you put some measure of thought into your posts instead of childish comments like that one, then. You have no-one to blame but yourself there.

Originally posted by psmith81992
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence#Condemnation_as_terrorism

Simply repeating that I'm biased doesn't make it so.

It';s not the repetition, but the logical reasoning behind what I said that gives my post merit. A context-less link from you changes nothing.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Jewish terrorists are such an outlier, that\s really what I meant.

I guess, but terrorism is a tool of those without power, though that says little about the predisposition of the people. When Jews had no power they used terrorism to their advantage to get what they want as well...

Additionally certain acts done by the Israeli government are definitely designed to invoke fear and terror in Palestinians...

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It';s not the repetition, but the logical reasoning behind what I said that gives my post merit. A context-less link from you changes nothing.

The Irgun began a militant operation against the symbols of government, in an attempt to harm the regime's operation as well as its reputation. The first attack was on February 12, 1944 at the government immigration offices, a symbol of the immigration laws. The attacks went smoothly and ended with no casualties—as they took place on a Saturday night, when the buildings were empty—in the three largest cities: Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and Haifa. On February 27 the income tax offices were bombed. Parts of the same cities were blown up, also on a Saturday night; prior warnings were put up near the buildings. On March 23 the national headquarters building of the British police in the Russian Compound in Jerusalem was attacked, and part of it was blown up. These attacks in the first few months were sharply condemned by the organized leadership of the Yishuv and by the Jewish Agency, who saw them as dangerous provocations.

The Jewish political leadership publicly condemned the attack. The Jewish Agency expressed "their feelings of horror at the base and unparalleled act perpetrated today by a gang of criminals", despite the fact that the Irgun was acting in response to the Jewish Resistance Movement, an organisation governed by the Jewish Agency.[citation needed] The Jewish National Council denounced the bombing.[9] According to The Jerusalem Post, "although the Hagana had sanctioned the King David bombing, world-wide condemnation caused the organization to distance itself from the attack."[8] David Ben-Gurion deemed the Irgun "the enemy of the Jewish people" after the attack.[citation needed] Hatsofeh, a Jewish newspaper in Palestine, labelled the Irgun perpetrators "fascists

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/season.html

But hey, i'm posting relevant links and quotes and your only response is "nope" so it looks like you already made up your mind beforehand.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I guess, but terrorism is a tool of those without power, though that says little about the predisposition of the people. When Jews had no power they used terrorism to their advantage to get what they want as well...

Additionally certain acts done by the Israeli government are definitely designed to invoke fear and terror in Palestinians...

First of all, it is incumbent on you to explain the context. Secondly, as has already been pointed out to you, all these terrorists were pardoned after independence, and then later celebrated and rewarded, so any vague words of condemnation simply look utterly false.

Don't try and make out I am the one arguing badly here. You're the one who blundered in in ignorance, and now you are desperately back-pedalling and trying to re-phrase your argument to try and look less foolish, now posting links that don't change the stage of the argument at all.

The hunting season was soon abandoned and the three main groups turned against the British again.

Think more, pay attention to what has been posted, read posts properly and don't make foolish posts, like the one you made to FA, in future.

Terrorism helped create Israel. The terrorists were celebrated and rewarded. These are the facts. The morality of it can be argued, but not the facts of it.

Originally posted by psmith81992
But not pivotal on any level.

It doesn't though. The fact that A happened before B happened doesn't give it "roots". The fact that the government at the time praised it while the majority of Jews condemned it doesn't change that either. 👆

I'm not cutting them out at all, that's why I called them an outlier, but it's silly to claim the creation of the state has roots linked to terrorism.

Considering, as Ush said, they were pivotal in influencing British withdrawal and in the conflict with the Arabs after partition, that's objectively wrong.

And I honestly don't give a hoot what the majority of Jewish people feel on the matter, although considering leaders of Lehi and Irgun later went on to serve as Prime Ministers, and don't appear to be lambasted by the Israeli people, I sincerely doubt that. No, my beef has always been with the Israeli government, who have always celebrated these terrorists, and continue to do so into the modern day.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Sure, but if you want to compare death tolls from jewish terrorism vs. Palestinian terrorism, it's not even close. Not that it makes it right, of course.

If we exclude the mentioned government supported acts of "terrorism...

Don't try and make out I am the one arguing badly here. You're the one who blundered in in ignorance, and now you are desperately back-pedalling and trying to re-phrase your argument to try and look less foolish, now posting links that don't change the stage of the argument at all.

I posted links that explain the condemnation, your response is "no, you're ignorant". You're going to have to do a better job to make your point because you're not only failing miserably, you're pretty much trolling now.

Terrorism helped create Israel

The terrorists were celebrated and rewarded

If we exclude the mentioned government supported acts of "terrorism...

Well, the problem with how terrorism deaths are counted in the Israel-Palestine conflict is that all deaths caused by Palestinians are considered acts of terrorism and all deaths caused by Israel (although considerably greater) are counted as acceptable acts of war.

psmith, everyone can see you backing up here. Eeeryone can see you initially totally denying what FA said with your childish comment and then later having to say 'What I meant was...', and then trying to re-contextualise it. It's all there, in the text of your own posts, for all to see. Your response here is feeble.

Nothing is being made up. This is, factually, what you did. Now grow up and stop making further childish posts and denials. I mean that in general, because a lot of your posts are going that way now. I am running out of patience for that kind of posting all over.

Feel free to look up the UK responses to the King David Hotel bombing and the Sergeants affair to see the role they had in the British withdrawal- a Parliamentary meeting almost immediately after the latter, called because of the latter, was the decision point.

And you are the one who keeps sidestepping things like the ex-terorrists becoming Prime Minister. I am not in any way being intentionally misleading. I am sticking to what is known.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, the problem with how terrorism deaths are counted in the Israel-Palestine conflict is that all deaths caused by Palestinians are considered acts of terrorism and all deaths caused by Israel (although considerably greater) are counted as acceptable acts of war.

I consider suicide bombs and ketushah rockets acts of terrorism. I think if we use "terrorism" the way it's been used on a consistent basis, the Palestinians win by a large margin. And again, you advocate context instead of black and white statements and you're making a black and white statements here. The deaths Palestinian cause are consistent with acts of terrorism. The deaths the Israeli government cause can certainly be debated, but that's the point.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I consider suicide bombs and ketushah rockets acts of terrorism. I think if we use "terrorism" the way it's been used on a consistent basis, the Palestinians win by a large margin. And again, you advocate context instead of black and white statements and you're making a black and white statements here. The deaths Palestinian cause are consistent with acts of terrorism. The deaths the Israeli government cause can certainly be debated, but that's the point.

Not all deaths caused by Palestinians fit the definition of terrorism either, though, indeed I am advocating for taking context into account. I don't think acts of war like attacking security forces is necessarily terrorism just because it is perpetrated by groups that don't have statehood recognized by the UN

Mod bashing post removed

Ok, you wanted to make a moderator argument- have a week off to think about your behaviour.

I'm so curious now....I clicked just a second too late...

He's posted plenty like it before.

I saw 131

And it was basically just an ad hominem attack.

At any rate, this thread has been informative for me, I did not know anything about early Jewish terrorism and how it ties into the creation of Israel....and that's more than I can say about basically any other GDF thread recently