Originally posted by Nephthys
And they did recover, after rediscovering a ton of shit on Tython and preparing for the second war.Logically it does. The number of active Sith is likely far higher than those trying to become Sith at any one point. Even with a miniscule graduation rate the numbers would eclipse the acolytes over time.
I'd expect there to be a lot of contenders who want to be sith, personally. Sith rule the Empire. Sith is a way out of slavery, to wealth and power. I'd expect there to be hundreds of wannabes for each sith.
And the second quote says that millions pf Sith are competing for the Dark Council seats. So um, yes it does?
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Really the question is, if there's millions of full-sith contenders, many times as many as most orders, why, out of such a huge talent pool, are the DC members only as strong as they are?
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Probably like 25 - 50,000 during SWTOR, TBH.Not millions like Neph says, but also not PT's 10,000.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not true. Even in TOR, there's a Padawan that is told he'll never be a Jedi Knight because he lacks determination on one task is made permanently removed from the ranks, and you are told that not even every Jedi Knight can lead Republic troops.
Hm, interesting. Guess they still were keeping standards up- unlike the New Sith Wars where they totally would've used that padawan.
Yes, the Jedi did not compromise on their standards during TOR timeline.
The Jedi got the opportunity to make a comeback from Treaty of Coruscant which led to end of hostilities of years.
As for the Sith, they are utterly outnumbered in the Empire (10000 : 1). Moreover, Sith count includes Apprentices, Lords, Specialists and Darths. Not sure if acolytes are considered but they would be among the millions aspiring to become members of the Dark Council at some point in the future.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nah, not ignoring it. "Rallied" doesn't exactly mean "busting at the seems" which is what millions of Force users would be. The Order is still broken, but luckily so are the Sith.
Sources state the opposite. There's an entire section in Swtore detailing how the Jedi recovered after the Sack of Coruscant ended the war. It concludes:
"In a time of strife, the Jedi Order has been renewed."
They've rediscovered old teachings, relearned ancient techniques and studied warfare more than the Jedi of the past did. In swtor, Jedi padawans possess combat experience greater than that of republic veterans.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Even after that the mortality rate is abysmally high. Sith in the Empire are dying and being replaced constantly.
Yet there are also numerous Sith who make it to old age and last decades in service. As you say, the dying are replaced constantly while the survivors carry on and are joined by more and more like them.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
When literally every Force Sensitive in the Empire is competing to be Sith, and literally every Sith is competing to be on the Dark Council, that doesn't mean millions of Sith are competing at once. Take a chill pill and bring your ten to a two.
Bollocks. Not every Sith is competing for the Dark Council. That doesn't make sense. The majority of them aren't doing anything to compete for those positions. And acolytes who aren't even Sith yet aren't either. Because that's stupid.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Do you know how large the number million actually is and how little of the galaxy the Sith actually control. Even if there is 999 hundred Sith on one planet, which is generous by any stretch of the imagination, the Sith empire would have to be comprised of at least 1,001 planets each with 999 Sith. That's ridiculous. And that's just for one million. Millions, as in plural, it get's even crazier.
999 hundred? Lol.
Why is that ridiculous? I imagine they have more worlds than just a thousand. They're constantly expanding into the Unknown regions and gained like a third of the galaxy in the first war. In the second war they were losing 3 planets a day. Also there's obviously planets with a disproportionate amount of Sith on them like Korriban and Dromund Kaas.
Regardless, it's true so the logistics don't matter. I like how you can't think of a way to refute the quote so you just complain about it not making sense though.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Given Pierce's codex entry, most citizens in the Empire join the military at some point, which is why they are even able to challenge the Republic in the first place.
Yet they are still "vastly outnumbered" (Hoth Lore), which is why they rely on war droids to supplement their numbers. And like I said, this was before the Empire received rapid growth after it's invasion.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because the way of the Sith is to rise to power and dominate. That's kind of their entire thing. Everybody wants to be the best and the weak are culled. That's like Sith 101, and pretty much everyone, but you apparently, knows that.
Acolytes aren't Sith yet. Hence why it says "millions strive to become Sith", meaning they aren't Sith yet. And they are the absolute furthest position away from a Dark Council seat. "Competing" for a Dark Council seat means that you need to be, you know, actually competing for them. Acolytes are competing just to become Sith in the first place, they're not even in the same solar system as those competing for the highest position achievable in the Empire.
It's like saying that a law student is competing to become a member of the supreme court. Yeah, no. That isn't how that works.
Originally posted by Q99
Really the question is, if there's millions of full-sith contenders, many times as many as most orders, why, out of such a huge talent pool, are the DC members only as strong as they are?
Only as strong as they are? Wut? Dark Council members are among the most powerful Sith in history.
You're assuming that a larger talent pool means there must be multiple Plagueis level force users in there. Beings on that kind of power level only appear in the galaxy once a generation or something. Considering Dooku was pretty much the strongest student Yoda had trained, it's pretty amazing that the Council can support numerous beings on a similar level to him at once.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Probably like 25 - 50,000 during SWTOR, TBH.Not millions like Neph says, but also not PT's 10,000.
It's hugely illogical to think the Jedi were outnumbered by that large a margin. And still be winning. Their numbers are most likely to be comparable to the Sith.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Only as strong as they are? Wut? Dark Council members are among the most powerful Sith in history.
They're strong to be sure, but they're not all that much better than Council members of eras that have 10k or less, and it varies, some of 'em aren't all that strong by their own admission.
You're assuming that a larger talent pool means there must be multiple Plagueis level force users in there. Beings on that kind of power level only appear in the galaxy once a generation or something. Considering Dooku was pretty much the strongest student Yoda had trained, it's pretty amazing that the Council can support numerous beings on a similar level to him at once.
Most Dark Council members are good, and while I don't expect Plagueis level, most are... not really once-a-generation talents, not judging by how we decide their matchups. Strong to be sure, but only some can stand up to Dooku, some like Vowrawn are not close to Kolar, let alone Dooku. Mekhis isn't Dooku level, and each of her three successors were weaker than her. Vengean. Decimus.
Which ones are close to Dooku's level? Nox, Thanaton, maybe Jadus and Marr? There are a good number of strong sith in the Empire, but someone Dooku's level is still quite stand-out.
Remember, if there were millions of Sith, then that means the talent pool for each Dark Council slot is about the size of entire Jedi/sith orders from other time frames.
It's hugely illogical to think the Jedi were outnumbered by that large a margin. And still be winning. Their numbers are most likely to be comparable to the Sith.
You're reasoning is sound and supported by evidence but (clearly) is open to interpretation and defies logic.
Originally posted by Q99
Most Dark Council members are good, and while I don't expect Plagueis level, most are... not really once-a-generation talents, not judging by how we decide their matchups. Strong to be sure, but only some can stand up to Dooku, some like Vowrawn are not close to Kolar, let alone Dooku. Mekhis isn't Dooku level, and each of her three successors were weaker than her. Vengean. Decimus.
WTF...
Originally posted by Q99
Which ones are close to Dooku's level? Nox, Thanaton, maybe Jadus and Marr? There are a good number of strong sith in the Empire, but someone Dooku's level is still quite stand-out.Remember, if there were millions of Sith, then that means the talent pool for each Dark Council slot is about the size of entire Jedi/sith orders from other time frames.
What is judgement criteria? Collapsing a large cave? Destroying a large statue? These showings prove "nothing."
No disrespect intended for Count Dooku, but your underestimation of TOR era is absolutely unreasonable.
Originally posted by Q99
To put it another way- If Tyranus, Maul, Wyyrlok, Nihl, and Maladi all wanted council slots at the same time, I'm confident they could get them, with Nihl and Maladi having the most trouble but Dooku and Wyyrlok quickly rising to the top of the council without much doubt or trouble.
Even Darth Thanaton couldn't last a few days on the Dark Council, I am sure these would. 🙄
You don't get it. The Empire is a setting where competition is cutthroat and unpredictable happens. Nobody's survival is guaranteed in this setting.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
By that logic, at least 90% of the people who have lasted more than a few days on the council wouldn't last more than a few days on the council tbh.
Darth Thanaton's fate is indicative of the fact that being super-strong or highly skilled duelist is not a guarantee for survival as a member of the Dark Council long-term. There is always someone out there who will take you down at some point.
I am simply trying to curtail Q99's high horse. He assumes that PT/Legacy era individuals are expected to do well in any setting and era. This is far-fetched assumption.
Bannite Sith are specialized, they never faced competition from millions of Sith to prove their worth.