Originally posted by Q99
-Yes. Some Dark Council Members could stand up to Darth Tyranus, but a good number would fall to him.
Honestly, this kind of stance is flawed. You cannot prove this point due to limited content. Nobody can.
This is why I tend to refrain from ranking characters because rankings are subjective in absence of an officially defined list.
Originally posted by Q99
-In combat? Definitely. He survives a lot on politics and such. Not only did he think the Wrath outmatched him so much it wasn't worth putting up a fight, but the Wrath thought he needed protection from Baras's assassins.
You get this impression because you have not witnessed him winning some fights. One does not becomes a
Darth in the Empire on the basis of competency in the matters of cunning and politics only; a Sith often finds himself in a situation where his combat prowess is put to the test. An acolyte has to prove his mettle during the harsh trials to be recognized as a Sith but challenges do not stop here; a Sith has to do something grand to be bestowed the rank of
Darth. For example, Darth Nox earned the rank of
Darth and a position in the Dark Council after defeating Darth Thanaton in kaggath.
What people tend to forget about Darth Vowrawn is that he is old during the events depicted in SWTOR and in the process of loosing his strength. We don't get to witness him in his prime days; he is in the same boat as Darth Xedrix was during the events of the novel. Several sources reveal that heavy (Dark Side) practices eventually take a toll on the practitioner and accelerates his aging process.
Originally posted by Q99
-Weaker than Dooku, yes. That is not the same as being weak on the whole!
Darth Decimus is officially counted among the greatest warriors of the Empire. He is known to have single-handedly routed armies of the Republic in various battles. I doubt that he will be weaker then Count Dooku.
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Darth Vengean is also a super-strong Sith:
All Sith have their masters. The one commanding Darth Baras is the Dark Council's feared military leader, Darth Vengean–a warmonger seeking to reignite conflict with the Republic and finally exterminate the foe that drove the Sith into exile a millennium ago. Vengean was openly outraged when the Treaty of Coruscant was signed into law, criticizing all who supported the peace accord and even quietly disparaging the Emperor. That he survived such insolence is a testament to his power. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic)
Darth Vengean was so powerful that Darth Baras was reluctant to challenge him directly. Heck, Darth Vengean is implied to be a master of Force Drain powers. Lord Draahg acquired proficiency in such powers under his tutelage.
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I am sorry, but you cannot prove that Count Dooku is better then either.
Originally posted by Q99
Do you think Arkous was Dooku's level? Hadra? Zhorrid?
Do you think that I am (or anybody is) in the position to rank these characters?
Darth Arkous was a veteran of the Great Galactic War and replaced Darth Baras in the Dark Council. I believe that a Strike Team assassinated him at some point. Keeping in mind his history, he must be very good, but he cannot be accurately ranked with such a limited profile. Same goes for the other two.
Originally posted by Q99
What have they, or Vengean, or Decimus done to put themselves on Dooku's level aside from being part of the Dark Council?
Covered above.
Originally posted by Q99
The Rule of Two is also designed to produce the most competent sith they can.
Agreed! But these Sith did not get to experience the cutthroat environment of the Empire and therefore had greater luck in accomplishing their goals and preferred to minimize competition. Interestingly, every Bannite Sith did not become a successor by fair means.
Originally posted by Q99
So are most orders!
Not necessarily.
Originally posted by Q99
There are ToR Sith that surpass Tyranus, but many in the council don't.
And I have to take your word for it?
Originally posted by Q99
Can you elaborate? You're quite incredulous but that's not the same as an argument establishing them as stronger.And no, "the TOR Empire was a cutthroat environment encouraged to make strong sith," is not sufficient.
You simply underestimate TOR-era Sith.
Originally posted by Q99
Because he had the poor fortune of running afoul Darth Nox, who was one of the strongest Sith of the Empire, Council or otherwise, and .Other Dark Council members expressed surprise that Thanaton fell, and several were quite impressed with his power.
Thanaton has greater feats than a lot of council members.
Is there a guarantee that the potential candidates [mentioned by you] won't run into someone stronger then themselves and avoid the inevitable? Assuming that they were born in the Empire, it was just as likely that they would have fallen during the trials.
There is always the possibility of a Sith running into someone stronger and smarter then him at any stage in the Empire.
Darth Thanaton have good feats; but feats don't tell us everything. Accolades actually tell us where a character stands in the grand picture.
Originally posted by Q99
Well, yes, as Thanatons' death showed, but the end result did not produce that many more strong sith than other times. There were still Sith who were not all that powerful who got into the Dark Council- while Thanaton managed to die fast despite his power, many of the revolving door Dark Councilors simply were not all that strong.
Only a
powerful Sith have a realistic chance to make it to the Dark Council in the Empire. However, competition is so intense at this stage that many don't last long after become a member. Yes, a member might manage to retain his position for a long time but his demise at some point is inevitable. Dark Council isn't just about muscle, it is just as demanding for leadership abilities and additional talents.
Personal strength may get you into the Dark Council but your survival [will] depend upon additional talents as well. Every Sith is not Dark Council material irrespective of personal strength. A well-rounded Sith is expected to last longer in the Dark Council then others.
Originally posted by Q99
The tendency for Dark Councilors to die to high-potential apprentices is quite noteworthy, a lot have fallen for that reason, before said apprentices reach their prime. The future Wrath killed Vengean, back when the Wrath was still a fair bit weaker than Baras. Baras was without a doubt a good deal stronger than Vengean, and while he didn't last super long himself due to the Wrath, it says a lot that someone definitely weaker than Baras or the Wrath lasted some time.
This is an issue with the game. It tends to give us an impression that a character is weaker at level 40 then he is is at level 50. Problem is that the lore does not adheres to level-based power progression. Yes, a character is expected to grow stronger with passage of time but levels are not a good method to determine power progression. The lore gives us clues about where a character stands at a certain point, levels are simply game-mechanics.
As pointed out to you earlier, Darth Baras was reluctant to challenge Darth Vengean in a Kaggath. But Darth Baras was still the primary boss for story-telling purpose. Go figure.
Moreover, some fights in the game are utterly lame even though they would be expected to be epic in the lore. It is possible that the Emperor's Wrath II defeated Darth Vengean in an epic duel and then took some time-off to recover from his injuries. We may never know.
Originally posted by Q99
The mere fact that there's so much variance and some who clearly aren't suitable for the slots says a lot- with such a huge talent pool, you'd expect that either they'd have no problem with filling 12 slots with badasses strong enough to only occasionally die, or that all 12 slots would constantly be under threat because there's so many competitors. Instead, you tend to have some slots rotate weak candidates repeatedly, and others sit in their chairs for decades without worry.
The Empire is actually designed to cull the weak from its ranks. This is why harsh trials are compulsory for any individual to become a Sith but the challenges do not end here. A Sith is expected to perform and do something grand to qualify for higher ranks. The Empire also gives the Sith an opportunity to challenge his rival in a fair manner via Kaggath system. Even the Emperor can be directly challenged via the Kaggath system. However, since multiple powerful Sith co-exist in the Empire who cannot be easily killed, the Sith often resort to schemes and politics to overcome their rivals.
You may get the impression that the Empire suffers in quality due to cutthroat competition but this is not the case. Empire is never short on capable Sith in the hour of need.