Originally posted by Azronger
Sidious managed to do it without any rituals after the power boost he gained from killing Plagueis. No other entity aside from the Son, Abeloth, and Sarasu Taalon (to my knowledge) have that kind of power.[...]
Quotes for Valkorion imbalancing the Force with his mere presence?
Haven't read Darth Plagueis since 2012; mind quoting the relevant passage? Even then, there is clear circumstances within the "showing" you're obviously not factoring, or flat-out ignoring. To put something in perspective though, according to Lana Beniko, during SoR --- Revan's presence in the Force was causing a galactic disturbance in the Force that was felt everywhere in the energy field.
Through scaling, we know that Revan is nowhere near Valkorion in power, so his effect on the Force would be monumentally more potent; certainly enough to say he can shift the balance in the Force that was already heavily tipped in the favor of the dark side because of rituals/meditations and such on a rend in the Force already created by Tenebrous' master via Plagueis and Sidious' tampering.
A feats-only approach will get you nowhere.
LMAO. You do know who you're telling that to, right? Holistic portrayal and hype can still put Valkorion above this Sidious. Feats is simply the icing on the cake.
Good thing Sidious is too skilled and too fast for Valkorion to do that. [/B]
Before or after Valkorion defeats him with the Force?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
👆I am beginning to appreciate you.
Among the fans of PT or a later era, your views appear to be much more balanced.
Thanks man, I try. xD
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Haven't read Darth Plagueis since 2012; mind quoting the relevant passage? Even then, there is clear circumstances within the "showing" you're obviously not factoring, or flat-out ignoring. To put something in perspective though, according to Lana Beniko, during SoR --- Revan's presence in the Force was causing a galactic disturbance in the Force that was felt everywhere in the energy field.Through scaling, we know that Revan is nowhere near Valkorion in power, so his effect on the Force would be monumentally more potent; certainly enough to say he can shift the balance in the Force that was already heavily tipped in the favor of the dark side because of rituals/meditations and such on a rend in the Force already created by Tenebrous' master via Plagueis and Sidious' tampering.
LMAO. You do know who you're telling that to, right? Holistic portrayal and hype can still put Valkorion above this Sidious. Feats is simply the icing on the cake.
Before or after Valkorion defeats him with the Force?
Thanks man, I try. xD
Regarding the ritual, tipping the balance of the Force irrevocably towards the dark side for decades such that the Jedi order's connection to the Cosmic Force diminishes is several orders of magnitude more impressive than even emitting a galaxywide Force disturbance.
Originally posted by Deronn_soloHaven't read Darth Plagueis since 2012; mind quoting the relevant passage? Even then, there is clear circumstances within the "showing" you're obviously not factoring, or flat-out ignoring. To put something in perspective though, according to Lana Beniko, during SoR --- Revan's presence in the Force was causing a galactic disturbance in the Force that was felt everywhere in the energy field.ESB Luke, Savage, Ventress, Maul etc. have all caused disturbances in the Force. Hardly impressive.
As for Sidious' feat, it is right in the prologue. I have underlined the relevant sentences:
A tremor took hold of the planet.
Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn’t constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic shift.
A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.
Slowly, almost reluctantly, he came back to himself, his gaze settling on his manicured hands. Returned to the present, he took note of his rapid breathing, while behind him the room labored to restore order. Air scrubbers hummed—costly wall tapestries undulating in the summoned breeze. Prized carpets sealed their fibers against the spread of spilled fluids. The droid shuffled in obvious confliction. Sidious pivoted to take in the disarray: antique furniture overturned; framed artwork askew. As if a whirlwind had swept through. And facedown on the floor lay a statue of Yanjon, one of four law-giving sages of Dwartii.
A piece Sidious had secretly coveted.
Also sprawled there, Plagueis: his slender limbs splayed and elongated head turned to one side. Dressed in finery, as for a night on the town.
And now dead.
Or was he?
Uncertainty rippled through Sidious, rage returning to his eyes. A tremor of his own making, or one of forewarning? Was it possible that the wily Muun had deceived him? Had Plagueis unlocked the key to immortality, and survived after all? Never mind that it would constitute a petty move for one so wise—for one who had professed to place the Grand Plan above all else. Had Plagueis become ensnared in a self-spun web of jealousy and possessiveness, victim of his own engineering, his own foibles?
If he hadn’t been concerned for his own safety, Sidious might have pitied him. Wary of approaching the corpse of his former Master, he called on the Force to roll the aged Muun over onto his back. From that angle Plagueis looked almost as he had when Sidious first met him, decades earlier: smooth, hairless cranium; humped nose, with its bridge flattened as if from a shock-ball blow and its sharp tip pressed almost to his upper lip; jutting lower jaw; sunken eyes still brimming with menace—a physical characteristic rarely encountered in a Muun. But then Plagueis had never been an ordinary Muun, nor an ordinary being of any sort.
Sidious took care, still reaching out with the Force. On closer inspection, he saw that Plagueis’s already cyanotic flesh was smoothing out, his features relaxing.
Faintly aware of the whir of air scrubbers and sounds of the outside world infiltrating the luxurious suite, he continued the vigil; then, in relief, he pulled himself up to his full height and let out his breath. This was no Sith trick. Not an instance of feigning death, but one of succumbing to its cold embrace. The being who had guided him to power was gone.
Wry amusement narrowed his eyes.
The Muun might have lived another hundred years unchanged. He might have lived forever had he succeeded fully in his quest. But in the end—though he could save others from death—he had failed to save himself.
A sense of supreme accomplishment puffed Sidious’s chest, and his thoughts unreeled.
Well, then, that wasn’t nearly as bad as we thought it might be...
Rarely did events play out as imagined, in any case. The order of future events was transient. In the same way that the past was reconfigured by selective memory, future events, too, were moving targets. One could only act on instinct, grab hold of an intuited perfect moment, and spring into action. One heartbeat late and the universe would have recomposed itself, no imposition of will sufficient to forestall the currents. One could only observe and react. Surprise was the element absent from any periodic table. A keystone element; a missing ingredient. The means by which the Force amused itself. A reminder to all sentient beings that some secrets could never be unlocked.
Confident that the will of the dark side had been done, he returned to the suite’s window wall. Two beings in a galaxy of countless trillions, but what had transpired in the suite would affect the lives of all of them. Already the galaxy had been shaped by the birth of one, and henceforth would be reshaped by the death of the other. But had the change been felt and recognized elsewhere? Were his sworn enemies aware that the Force had shifted irrevocably? Would it be enough to rouse them from self-righteousness? He hoped not. For now the work of vengeance could begin in earnest.
His eyes sought and found an ascending constellation of stars, one of power and consequence new to the sky, though soon to be overwhelmed by dawn’s first light. Low in the sky over the flatlands, visible only to those who knew where and how to look, it ushered in a bold future. To some the stars and planets might seem to be moving as ever, destined to align in configurations calculated long before their fiery births. But in fact the heavens had been perturbed, tugged by dark matter into novel alignments. In his mouth, Sidious tasted the tang of blood; in his chest, he felt the monster rising, emerging from shadowy depths and contorting his aspect into something fearsome just short of revealing itself to the world.
The dark side had made him its property, and now he made the dark side his.
Breathless, not from exertion but from the sudden inspiration of power, he let go of the sill and allowed the monster to writhe through his body like an unbroken beast of range or prairie.
Had the Force ever been so strong in anyone?
Sidious had never learned how Plagueis’s own Master had met his end. Had he died at Plagueis’s hand? Had Plagueis, too, experienced a similar exultation on becoming a sole Sith Lord? Had the beast of the end time risen then to peek at the world it was to inhabit, knowing its release was imminent?
–Darth Plagueis
Now, before you spam me with laughing gifs, lmfaos and whatever else, let me explain:
The quote references the present, not their ritual. It clearly mentions "what had transpired in the suite," and immediately after "the Force had shifted irrevoccably". What transpired in the suite was that Sidious gained a tremendous increase in power, the spirits of the ancient Sith returned from their dark graves to praise Sidious, and the very concept of the dark side anointed Sidious. That's what happened in the suite, and it shifted the Force just like Plagueis' and Sidious' meditation, but this time it happened instantly.
If you still doubt this, remember that there are no other significant power boosts Sidious gained between TPM and RotS, so most of the power he wields in RotS, he gained from this boost. And when other quotes say he is already a galaxy-wide nexus as of RotS, it is clear he became one as a result of this boost in TPM.
To put this into perspective, for the Force to have shifted simply because of Palpatine's boost in power even more than it already had, that would mean the combined power 41BBY Plagueis and Sidious possess with months of prep and ritual is less than post-boost Sidious' personal power that he can call upon at will.
[QUOTE]Through scaling, we know that Revan is nowhere near Valkorion in power, so his effect on the Force would be monumentally more potent; certainly enough to say he can shift the balance in the Force that was already heavily tipped in the favor of the dark side because of rituals/meditations and such on a rend in the Force already created by Tenebrous' master via Plagueis and Sidious' tampering.
Already addressed this.
LMAO. You do know who you're telling that to, right? Holistic portrayal and hype can still put Valkorion above this Sidious. Feats is simply the icing on the cake.
Holistic portrayal will always fail Valkorion when it comes to combatting Sidious hype, since there are accolades for the latter's canonical inferiors hyping them up as the most powerful Sith Lords in history. Not that I buy into those.
Before or after Valkorion defeats him with the Force?
I doubt Valkorion could even successfully wound Sidious given the level of Force defenses he's boasting. He gets massive scaling from Darth Bane, who's been partially successful at deflecting lightsaber strikes with the Force. Sidious, with Banite scaling, certainly could, with ease at that, and I haven't seen anything from Valkorion that would put his lightning above the intensity of a lightsaber blade.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Haven't read Darth Plagueis since 2012; mind quoting the relevant passage? Even then, there is clear circumstances within the "showing" you're obviously not factoring, or flat-out ignoring. To put something in perspective though, according to Lana Beniko, during SoR --- Revan's presence in the Force was causing a galactic disturbance in the Force that was felt everywhere in the energy field.
ESB Luke, Savage, Ventress, Maul etc. have all caused disturbances in the Force. Hardly impressive.
As for Sidious' feat, it is right in the prologue. I have underlined the relevant sentences:
A tremor took hold of the planet.
Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn’t constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic shift.
A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.
Slowly, almost reluctantly, he came back to himself, his gaze settling on his manicured hands. Returned to the present, he took note of his rapid breathing, while behind him the room labored to restore order. Air scrubbers hummed—costly wall tapestries undulating in the summoned breeze. Prized carpets sealed their fibers against the spread of spilled fluids. The droid shuffled in obvious confliction. Sidious pivoted to take in the disarray: antique furniture overturned; framed artwork askew. As if a whirlwind had swept through. And facedown on the floor lay a statue of Yanjon, one of four law-giving sages of Dwartii.
A piece Sidious had secretly coveted.
Also sprawled there, Plagueis: his slender limbs splayed and elongated head turned to one side. Dressed in finery, as for a night on the town.
And now dead.
Or was he?
Uncertainty rippled through Sidious, rage returning to his eyes. A tremor of his own making, or one of forewarning? Was it possible that the wily Muun had deceived him? Had Plagueis unlocked the key to immortality, and survived after all? Never mind that it would constitute a petty move for one so wise—for one who had professed to place the Grand Plan above all else. Had Plagueis become ensnared in a self-spun web of jealousy and possessiveness, victim of his own engineering, his own foibles?
If he hadn’t been concerned for his own safety, Sidious might have pitied him. Wary of approaching the corpse of his former Master, he called on the Force to roll the aged Muun over onto his back. From that angle Plagueis looked almost as he had when Sidious first met him, decades earlier: smooth, hairless cranium; humped nose, with its bridge flattened as if from a shock-ball blow and its sharp tip pressed almost to his upper lip; jutting lower jaw; sunken eyes still brimming with menace—a physical characteristic rarely encountered in a Muun. But then Plagueis had never been an ordinary Muun, nor an ordinary being of any sort.
Sidious took care, still reaching out with the Force. On closer inspection, he saw that Plagueis’s already cyanotic flesh was smoothing out, his features relaxing.
Faintly aware of the whir of air scrubbers and sounds of the outside world infiltrating the luxurious suite, he continued the vigil; then, in relief, he pulled himself up to his full height and let out his breath. This was no Sith trick. Not an instance of feigning death, but one of succumbing to its cold embrace. The being who had guided him to power was gone.
Wry amusement narrowed his eyes.
The Muun might have lived another hundred years unchanged. He might have lived forever had he succeeded fully in his quest. But in the end—though he could save others from death—he had failed to save himself.
A sense of supreme accomplishment puffed Sidious’s chest, and his thoughts unreeled.
Well, then, that wasn’t nearly as bad as we thought it might be...
Rarely did events play out as imagined, in any case. The order of future events was transient. In the same way that the past was reconfigured by selective memory, future events, too, were moving targets. One could only act on instinct, grab hold of an intuited perfect moment, and spring into action. One heartbeat late and the universe would have recomposed itself, no imposition of will sufficient to forestall the currents. One could only observe and react. Surprise was the element absent from any periodic table. A keystone element; a missing ingredient. The means by which the Force amused itself. A reminder to all sentient beings that some secrets could never be unlocked.
Confident that the will of the dark side had been done, he returned to the suite’s window wall. Two beings in a galaxy of countless trillions, but what had transpired in the suite would affect the lives of all of them. Already the galaxy had been shaped by the birth of one, and henceforth would be reshaped by the death of the other. But had the change been felt and recognized elsewhere? Were his sworn enemies aware that the Force had shifted irrevocably? Would it be enough to rouse them from self-righteousness? He hoped not. For now the work of vengeance could begin in earnest.
His eyes sought and found an ascending constellation of stars, one of power and consequence new to the sky, though soon to be overwhelmed by dawn’s first light. Low in the sky over the flatlands, visible only to those who knew where and how to look, it ushered in a bold future. To some the stars and planets might seem to be moving as ever, destined to align in configurations calculated long before their fiery births. But in fact the heavens had been perturbed, tugged by dark matter into novel alignments. In his mouth, Sidious tasted the tang of blood; in his chest, he felt the monster rising, emerging from shadowy depths and contorting his aspect into something fearsome just short of revealing itself to the world.
The dark side had made him its property, and now he made the dark side his.
Breathless, not from exertion but from the sudden inspiration of power, he let go of the sill and allowed the monster to writhe through his body like an unbroken beast of range or prairie.
Had the Force ever been so strong in anyone?
Sidious had never learned how Plagueis’s own Master had met his end. Had he died at Plagueis’s hand? Had Plagueis, too, experienced a similar exultation on becoming a sole Sith Lord? Had the beast of the end time risen then to peek at the world it was to inhabit, knowing its release was imminent?
–Darth Plagueis
Now, before you spam me with laughing gifs, lmfaos and whatever else, let me explain:
The quote references the present, not their ritual. It clearly mentions "what had transpired in the suite," and immediately after "the Force had shifted irrevoccably". What transpired in the suite was that Sidious gained a tremendous increase in power, the spirits of the ancient Sith returned from their dark graves to praise Sidious, and the very concept of the dark side anointed Sidious. That's what happened in the suite, and it shifted the Force just like Plagueis' and Sidious' meditation, but this time it happened instantly.
If you still doubt this, remember that there are no other significant power boosts Sidious gained between TPM and RotS, so most of the power he wields in RotS, he gained from this boost. And when other quotes say he is already a galaxy-wide nexus as of RotS, it is clear he became one as a result of this boost in TPM.
To put this into perspective, for the Force to have shifted simply because of Palpatine's boost in power even more than it already had, that would mean the combined power 41BBY Plagueis and Sidious possess with months of prep and ritual is less than post-boost Sidious' personal power that he can call upon at will.
Through scaling, we know that Revan is nowhere near Valkorion in power, so his effect on the Force would be monumentally more potent; certainly enough to say he can shift the balance in the Force that was already heavily tipped in the favor of the dark side because of rituals/meditations and such on a rend in the Force already created by Tenebrous' master via Plagueis and Sidious' tampering.
Already addressed this.
LMAO. You do know who you're telling that to, right? Holistic portrayal and hype can still put Valkorion above this Sidious. Feats is simply the icing on the cake.
Holistic portrayal will always fail Valkorion when it comes to combatting Sidious hype, since there are accolades for the latter's canonical inferiors hyping them up as the most powerful Sith Lords in history. Not that I buy into those.
Before or after Valkorion defeats him with the Force?
I doubt Valkorion could even successfully wound Sidious given the level of Force defenses he's boasting. He gets massive scaling from Darth Bane, who's been partially successful at deflecting lightsaber strikes with the Force. Sidious, with Banite scaling, certainly could, with ease at that, and I haven't seen anything from Valkorion that would put his lightning above the intensity of a lightsaber blade.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
To play devil's advocate, how do you know that shift wasn't caused by Plagueis's death, and the implications for galactic events, not Sidious growing super powerful?
I already gave my alternate explanation.
But anyway, why would the death of an individual have more of an effect than on the galactic balance, than when they were alive, when they had infinitely more power and command of the Force?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
By all means elaborate.
Well by the butterfly effect I mean that I don't really know, like maybe Plagueis would've sabotaged Palpatine's attempts to turn Anakin, and then gotten unmasked by Yoda, and the two would've been exposed, etc.
In either case, there's no denying that Sidious's killing of Plagueis was of historical importance.
Originally posted by Azronger
I thought we were talking about the balance of the Force and not political stuff.
Killing thousands of Jedi and turning the Chosen One wouldn't have shifted the balance of the Force?