How Canine Pack Hierarchy really works

Started by Q992 pages

How Canine Pack Hierarchy really works

Ok, you know all that stuff you hear about 'alphas,' betas, omegas, and so on?

Dominance behavior in Canids

It's kinda bunk!

Take a look at this picture of who-wins-conflicts-with-whom in an actual group of canines:

Now, of those, who's the alpha? Br has the most wins... and an equal number of losses. GS? Ed? Really, there's no way to tell... because wolves and dogs don't really sort themselves out like that.

With one, notably exception. When there's a small group, and the ones in charge are mom & dad to the rest. Which... well, yea, parents... who don't act in the stereotypical alpha-aggression fashion, almost never initiating conflict with the kids. Unless there's a step parent, in which case there can be may be some fighting.

Also, actual aggression in wild packs is pretty uncommon, and a lot of stuff associated with 'submission,' like, say, begging for food from another, doesn't necessarily mean a poor position- if there's a canine that everyone else gives food, that means they *like* that individual, possibly a lot more than the one who picks & wins fights, and may be of higher status.

Which makes it kinda funny when people try and frame human behavior in alpha/beta/etc. terms and paint aggression as the way to 'be an alpha,' when it's not even the case with wolves, the original use of that phrase was based on a very limited study of a single group in captivity, and doesn't represent any natural sorting.

Anyway, just an interesting article I thought I'd share.

People who call themselves alphas were always juvenile and insecure anyways.

Me? I just want people to like me, it's not even for food 💃

Interesting OP....👆

Originally posted by Bentley
Me? I just want people to like me

I dont care if they do. I most times find it preferable if they dont, or at least dont become overly familiar.

Interesting. Yeah, I too find it baffling and kinda sad when people try to frame human behavior in this way.

On the other hand, I do enjoy asserting my dominance over my aunt's chihuahua. Alpha as f*ck.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Interesting. Yeah, I too find it baffling and kinda sad when people try to frame human behavior in this way.

Which is kinda ironic, as so often people try and frame animal behavior in human ways.

Your post got me to thinking. We all know anthropomorphism is attributing human attributes to (in this case) animals, but, turns out beastiality is an acceptable way of describing the opposite...

bestialise/-ize - to make bestial or beastlike: War bestializes its participants.

...and so is zoomorphism, which is the tendency of viewing human behavior in terms of the behavior of animals.

If i ever knew these definitions, i'd forgotten them till now so, (re?)learned something new today!

I've literally never seen anyone who's described themselves as "Alpha" or called other men "Betas" who wasn't a complete moron.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I've literally never seen anyone who's described themselves as "Alpha" or called other men "Betas" who wasn't a complete moron.

...especially since the term these clowns are looking for is 'omega-male'

the beautiful irony is that guys who throw these terms about are typically doing so in order to test others for a higher position in their respective pecking order, which is most typical of a pack's beta males toward other beta males.

woof woof woof

The guy who did this research is probably an assmad beta. 👆 tbh

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I've literally never seen anyone who's described themselves as "Alpha" or called other men "Betas" who wasn't a complete moron.

Neither have I.

Multiple people were involved in coming to this conclusion including, ironically, Rudolf Schenkel, the person of the original alpha study, and it's popularizer are among them:


L. David Mech took Schenkel’s alpha concept but not his footnote and popularized it in his 1970 book called Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation. The idea took off and hit mainstream culture, and there it stayed, despite the fact that Mech is ironically now one of the people most adamantly against this view of wolf packs.

His mind was changed after he participated in a 13-year study of wild wolves in Alaska. During this time, Mech observed little aggression and no status challenges.

Originally posted by Q99
Multiple people were involved in coming to this conclusion including, ironically, Rudolf Schenkel, the person of the original alpha study, and it's popularizer are among them:

A group of betas, even worse.

^^^Ha, thats my usual expression!

Originally posted by Tzeentch

A group of betas, even worse.

YouTube video

Alpha- and beta mentality originates from Nietzsche's "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" where the alpha mentality is the desire for personal growth whereas the beta mentality is the desire for safety and comfort.

I see where you are coming from, but I don't think Nietzsche used these terms. Nor do (most) people who talk about Alphas and Betas actually follow Nietzsche's philosophy, rather they are following a simplification of the pack theory as this thread explains.

Yeah, in regards to this subject most wouldnt know Nietzsche from Nachos.

The alpha mentality is distinguishing of people who are competitive, opportunistic, don't dwell on regrets and want to lead. The beta mentality on the other hand is distinguishing of lazy and cowardly ****s who want to be taken care of. That's why Nietzsche also called it the herd- and slave mentality.

How does that not adequately represent the modern view of the alpha male?

^^^Calm down, Gamma male...
No one said if didnt. It was pointed out most wont associate the terms with Nietzsche.