Who's more durable, Cell Juniors or Frieza?

Originally posted by juggerman
Goku was holding back A LOT against Frieza. That was made abundantly clear when Trunks took out a more powerful Frieza with the ease of wiping his arse.

An increase on a million was still pretty big. I'm not saying it was the end all but again 1 million was the different between the farmer Raditz killed and Second Form freaking Frieza. How can you say it's not a huge gap seriously?

I understand they all got stronger. A shit ton stronger. But again if they were doubling and tripling and fourth-ing(yup) their power after Frieza then Gohan's bump would have been standard. It clearly wasn't. It was AMAZING to them. almost unfathomable even. His bump was so freaking unreal.

Also I'd like to point out that again had doubles and greaters been so normally achieved then Cell would have in no way wanted to provoke Gohan into doubling his power since he would have known he was less than twice as strong as him. Clearly he believed whatever increase Gohan got would be less than 2x. Why would he think that if Trunks and Vegeta were increasing like you say? It literally makes no sense

An increase of a million was big. Until SS came alone. Then it became meaningless. Hell even Piccolo completely shattered that expectation when he hovered around heart disease Goku level prior to his fusion. The fact that Goku was 30 million above Frieza proves a million became meaningless. That's a quarter of Frieza's power.

Because they stopped tripling their power like that once they hit Gohan level prior to Buu. Even after 7 years Vegeta and Goku although higher than Gohan were still comparing their power to his in SS2 forms. Like I said that you completely ignored, Goku got tens of thousands of times stronger from DB to the Namek saga. Hell he got thousands of times stronger from the start of DBZ to the Namek saga.

Because they hit a limit at that level. And Cell only achieved his power from absorbing beings. He can't do that in the middle of battle and he didn't even know SS2 existed. I don't get how this becomes a point for you. Cell wanted to piss Gohan off because he's an ass hole and paid the price. That's all.
I don't get how you're comparing 5 years of training for Gohan and Goku to Cell in the middle of battle. The only one who didn't train for over 5 years from Frieza to Cell is Trunks and he trained 2 years at least still of only training. So yeah, that's why they were jumping up that high. Vegeta for example trained 3 years weighing 200 tons in the gravity machine. Then 2 years of only training. And a year of probably something from Namek exploding to Goku's arrival.

Originally posted by juggerman
I love DBZ

Originally posted by juggerman
Goku was holding back A LOT against Frieza. That was made abundantly clear when Trunks took out a more powerful Frieza with the ease of wiping his arse.

An increase on a million was still pretty big. I'm not saying it was the end all but again 1 million was the different between the farmer Raditz killed and Second Form freaking Frieza. How can you say it's not a huge gap seriously?

I understand they all got stronger. A shit ton stronger. But again if they were doubling and tripling and fourth-ing(yup) their power after Frieza then Gohan's bump would have been standard. It clearly wasn't. It was AMAZING to them. almost unfathomable even. His bump was so freaking unreal.

Also I'd like to point out that again had doubles and greaters been so normally achieved then Cell would have in no way wanted to provoke Gohan into doubling his power since he would have known he was less than twice as strong as him. Clearly he believed whatever increase Gohan got would be less than 2x. Why would he think that if Trunks and Vegeta were increasing like you say? It literally makes no sense

How many times more powerful is Perfect Cell over Frieza?

Freeza was heavily suppressed on earth...

Yamcha: "Freeza's chi... He's that powerful..?"
Gohan: "This is nothing... He gets way stronger than this..!":
http://i.imgur.com/yKMqwCl.jpg
And since Gohan was one of the few beings still alive on Namek when Freeza used 100% power, his word on the matter is pretty irrefutable.

There's also Mecha-Freeza's petite stature:

Anyway, we know that Freeza only starts bulking up noticeably when he uses upwards of 70% power. That aside, Freeza came to earth under the impression that the most powerful being there(by a long-shot) was Vegeta, who *might* have had a PL in the low millions. He didn't plan on Goku arriving for a few hours, and he certainly had no clue about Trunks. That said, Freeza would have had NO reason to be accessing higher percentages of his power(he did like to conserve energy, after all.) It makes much more sense for him to be using a very low percentage of his power, like he initially was on Namek(~3%.) I suppose he *may* have been using 50% power for some inextricable reason, but anymore than that simply doesn't make sense considering he didn't plan on running into anyone on Goku's level, except Goku himself.

This is important because after Trunks appeared and went SSJ, Freeza wasn't shown or stated to have powered up at all. Tbh, he really didn't get a chance to--Trunks was all over him. This, imo, explains how Trunks was able to beat Freeza with such ease, when he was 'only' equal in power to Namek-saga SSJ Goku.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Regardless, every improvement contributes. Again, the level of strength he gained between Frieza's defeat and the meeting with Trunks alone is astonishing, and by the Android saga he was even stronger than that. Regardless, Semi-Perfect Cell could have defeated him with a single blow, and Perfect Cell is on a completely different level.

It's not hard to understand why people think SSJ Goku (Cell Games) could deal with Frieza a lot more easily than SSJ2 Gohan did with Cell.

Yes it does contribute. But look at it this way,

Trunks was less than 30 million stronger than Frieza and made him look like a feeb. So what that tells us is that you don't need to be anywhere near double your opponent's power to treat them like fodder. This has been shown to us multiple times in DBZ if you need further examples.

Anyway, Less than 30 to treat him that way, which means that the androids wouldn't need to be THAT much stronger than Trunks and company to treat them like they were trash. Same with Cell and droids, Super Vegeta and Cell and so on. This idea that they had to be multiple times stronger isn't necessarily the case

But yes Cell Game Goku could deal with Frieza more easily than Gohan and Cell because we already saw a peer of Goku's(Trunks) handle him much more easily already. An even stronger Goku isn't needed

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Post a scan that says Goku was massively holding back.

An increase of a million was big. Until SS came alone. Then it became meaningless. Hell even Piccolo completely shattered that expectation when he hovered around heart disease Goku level prior to his fusion. The fact that Goku was 30 million above Frieza proves a million became meaningless. That's a quarter of Frieza's power.

Because they stopped tripling their power like that once they hit Gohan level prior to Buu. Even after 7 years Vegeta and Goku although higher than Gohan were still comparing their power to his in SS2 forms. Like I said that you completely ignored, Goku got tens of thousands of times stronger from DB to the Namek saga. Hell he got thousands of times stronger from the start of DBZ to the Namek saga.

Because they hit a limit at that level. And Cell only achieved his power from absorbing beings. He can't do that in the middle of battle and he didn't even know SS2 existed. I don't get how this becomes a point for you. Cell wanted to piss Gohan off because he's an ass hole and paid the price. That's all.
I don't get how you're comparing 5 years of training for Gohan and Goku to Cell in the middle of battle. The only one who didn't train for over 5 years from Frieza to Cell is Trunks and he trained 2 years at least still of only training. So yeah, that's why they were jumping up that high. Vegeta for example trained 3 years weighing 200 tons in the gravity machine. Then 2 years of only training. And a year of probably something from Namek exploding to Goku's arrival.

SSJ Goku was equal to SSJ Trunks as per the canon PL's released. We see what Trunks did to an even stronger Frieza. Goku wasn't going all out or else he would have killed Frieza right away

I never said a million would be a game changer later on. But regardless of what you think about it it is still a major difference seeing as how humans are literally nothing to second form Frieza

And like I said that YOU ignored, Increased like that stopped after Namek. There was never one recorded increase anywhere close to that after Fireza. Either Akira forgot or just didn't like doing it. But they did stop

During the three years of training Vegeta got to around Goku's level. Maybe a little higher but it wasn't confirmed one way or the other. This is told to us by Piccolo(I think) when he stated that Vegeta MIGHT even be stronger than Goku now. Cell knew how much power he had, he also knew how powerful Gohan was. He pushed Gohan expecting an increase similar to what Vegeta and Trunks came back with when they fought him. Again, had they made progress above double Cell would not have pushed Gohan. It's really that simple.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
😂

You're opinion on this matter means less than nothing to me. Me having a difference of opinion of the number(which really don't matter in the grand scheme btw) means I somehow now dislike it now? What a crock 😂

Originally posted by carver9
How many times more powerful is Perfect Cell over Frieza?

No clue since PL's weren't given after Frieza

Originally posted by Galan007
Freeza was heavily suppressed on earth...

Yamcha: "Freeza's chi... He's [b]that powerful..?"
Gohan: "This is nothing... He gets way stronger than this..!":
http://i.imgur.com/yKMqwCl.jpg
And since Gohan was one of the few beings still alive on Namek when Freeza used 100% power, his word on the matter is pretty irrefutable.

There's also Mecha-Freeza's petite stature:

Anyway, we know that Freeza only starts bulking up noticeably when he uses upwards of 70% power. That aside, Freeza came to earth under the impression that the most powerful being there(by a long-shot) was Vegeta, who *might* have had a PL in the low millions. He didn't plan on Goku arriving for a few hours, and he certainly had no clue about Trunks. That said, Freeza would have had NO reason to be accessing higher percentages of his power(he did like to conserve energy, after all.) It makes much more sense for him to be using a very low percentage of his power, like he initially was on Namek(~3%.) I suppose he *may* have been using 50% power for some inextricable reason, but anymore than that simply doesn't make sense considering he didn't plan on running into anyone on Goku's level, except Goku himself.

This is important because after Trunks appeared and went SSJ, Freeza wasn't shown or stated to have powered up at all. Tbh, he really didn't get a chance to--Trunks was all over him. This, imo, explains how Trunks was able to beat Freeza with such ease, when he was 'only' equal in power to Namek-saga SSJ Goku. [/B]

Ah ok I stand corrected.

Where do you stand on the whole "Z-Warriors got many multiple times stronger between Frieza and Cell" idea?

@Juggerman...

If you had to guess, how much more powerful was Cell over Frieza? 2, 3, 5 time more powerful? What do you think?

Based on their awestruck reactions to SSJ2 Gohan(who 'only' received a 2x boost), I completely disagree. Hell, Goku was convinced that NO amount of training could increase his power that much.

Additionally, Androids 19 & 20, who I believe were each around Freeza-level, still considered Yamcha's energies(which were around 30k, max) to be a substantial 'meal' for them. So yeah...

This thread makes my head hurt.

Originally posted by Galan007
Based on their awestruck reactions to SSJ2 Gohan(who 'only' received a 2x boost), I completely disagree. Hell, Goku was convinced that NO amount of training could increase his power that much.

Additionally, Androids 19 & 20, who I believe were each around Freeza-level, still considered Yamcha's energies(which were around 30k, max) to be a substantial 'meal' for them. So yeah...

The androids around Frieza level? What in the world.

Sorry, should have specified: suppressed 4th form Freeza-level.

Originally posted by juggerman
SSJ Goku was equal to SSJ Trunks as per the canon PL's released. We see what Trunks did to an even stronger Frieza. Goku wasn't going all out or else he would have killed Frieza right away

I never said a million would be a game changer later on. But regardless of what you think about it it is still a major difference seeing as how humans are literally nothing to second form Frieza

And like I said that YOU ignored, Increased like that stopped after Namek. There was never one recorded increase anywhere close to that after Fireza. Either Akira forgot or just didn't like doing it. But they did stop

During the three years of training Vegeta got to around Goku's level. Maybe a little higher but it wasn't confirmed one way or the other. This is told to us by Piccolo(I think) when he stated that Vegeta MIGHT even be stronger than Goku now. Cell knew how much power he had, he also knew how powerful Gohan was. He pushed Gohan expecting an increase similar to what Vegeta and Trunks came back with when they fought him. Again, had they made progress above double Cell would not have pushed Gohan. It's really that simple.

But anyway, I'm glad you brought up Trunks being around equal to Goku, because...

In Trunks' timeline Android 17 was apparently more than twice as powerful as Gohan when he wasn't holding back.
http://i67.tinypic.com/35bryv6.jpg

And Gohan was around Trunks level with one arm (which means he was around Goku level as well)
http://i66.tinypic.com/33k6lo3.jpg

And in the main timeline, the Androids were much stronger than Trunks' timeline.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2a6o6wx.jpg

Which would more than strongly imply they were more than twice Frieza's power. Which means if they reached that level, they would have gotten double the power of Frieza, and Trunks. And when they can manhandle a being that absorbed Android 17 who could utterly manhandle Android at a starting level (and Android 16 says that Cell shouldn't be that strong in Perfect Form which indicates it wasn't just simple addition, or at the very least it was), that indicates at the very least that they are 4 times stronger than Frieza and Trunks again. Considering Trunks actually got stronger than Perfect Cell who absorbed a being around twice as strong as his starting point (Trunks), that works out to around 6 times as powerful as a low estimate.
I believe in the Daizenshuu it was stated that Cell was 9 hundred million as well, so 6 times seems fair.

Now Trunks may or may not have been operating at that level when fighting the Cell Jrs, but we do know for a fact that his double ascended form was not a double multiplier (based on Cell being one shotted by Gohan). Which would mean his SS form had to have been at least above 450 million. Which would mean his starting point of 150 million more than doubled. And that's an absolutely low estimate of his power too. So when a Trunks who at the lowest is 3 times more powerful than Frieza and he can't damage Cell Jrs, it means that your entire point in this thread is wrong. Well, it would be when even a Trunks saga Trunks can't damage a Cell Jr but you get the point. Which means that you playing coy with Carver about SS2 having no feats just makes you look like an ass in the process.

As to the rest of your post... the increases stopped after the Cell Saga, not the Namek Saga. How else would we explain the Androids being eclipsed so completely and utterly? And then the increases apparently started anew when Super began.

And your post about Vegeta doesn't make sense again in response to Gohan. You're not speaking of cases where they go away and train for a while, in both examples you're using, Cell already knew exactly of their powers from their fights from the actual timeframe. Vegeta didn't fight Cell, lose, and then come back and eclipse him. The actual training is largely irrelevant in your example. Cell didn't have a starting point to judge things off of. Unless you considering him thinking Vegeta was a maggot when he first challenged him.
And the whole Cell pissing off Gohan thing was just Cell's way of testing a new power like Vegeta pride. Considering Gohan was already near his level, Cell goading him to get new power was a dumb move already. It was unexpected on his part but that doesn't mean that it overrules previous levels. Had Goku level Trunks transformed into SS2 at that level, he still would have gotten his ass handed to him by Semi Perfect Cell. Probably even Android 16. If they keep getting stronger however, and still have a double powerup in the back pocket at anytime, then that opens up a lot of doors for them. Which is why Gohan's transformation was so impressive. Because he was already near Cell's level when Cell was actually going all out. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks could only get near Cell's all out level when they massively slow themselves down to a point of not being able to hit him, but Gohan can then go double that with way more speed and power. And had Gohan continued to train, conceivably even beyond that to a large degree.

Originally posted by juggerman
You're opinion on this matter means less than nothing to me. Me having a difference of opinion of the number(which really don't matter in the grand scheme btw) means I somehow now dislike it now? What a crock 😂

Having more grounded opinions isn't tantamount to disliking something. 😂

He dislike DBZ characters though. It's obvious. I've never seen the guy go for DBZ characters. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to point out the obvious.

Originally posted by juggerman
What ever would give you that idea.

But I agree this is a silly thread

Because I know you have a good knowledge regarding DBZ, I saw that on the occasions we had to talk about it.
This is why I'm sure you are trolling when, for example, you are writing this:

Originally posted by juggerman
Not even twice.

Remember that SSJ2 is double SSJ1. Meaning had he even doubled his power he would have been in the SSJ2 teir and would have been able to curb Perfect Cell

Originally posted by carver9
@Juggerman...

If you had to guess, how much more powerful was Cell over Frieza? 2, 3, 5 time more powerful? What do you think?

Somewhere between 3 and 4 I'd guess

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Having more grounded opinions isn't tantamount to disliking something. 😂

Thank you 👆

Originally posted by carver9
He dislike DBZ characters though. It's obvious. I've never seen the guy go for DBZ characters. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to point out the obvious.

I really don't dislike them I just hate the wanking. And the only time I argued against DBZ was in regards to Superman. That hardly equates to me never going for DBZ carv

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
Because I know you have a good knowledge regarding DBZ, I saw that on the occasions we had to talk about it.
This is why I'm sure you are trolling when, for example, you are writing this:

Galan, one of the most knowledgeable here on DBZ, agrees with what I said(besides the Trunks vs Frieza part which I admitted I was mistaken about)

Originally posted by One Big Mob
And Trunks had a sword that instantly cut Frieza in half. As well as Frieza being suppressed (mind you he himself said he was more powerful...). No Goku was never stated to be massively holding back. One of the hardest fights of his life and he was actually holding back the entire time? 😂

But anyway, I'm glad you brought up Trunks being around equal to Goku, because...

In Trunks' timeline Android 17 was apparently more than twice as powerful as Gohan when he wasn't holding back.
http://i67.tinypic.com/35bryv6.jpg

And Gohan was around Trunks level with one arm (which means he was around Goku level as well)
http://i66.tinypic.com/33k6lo3.jpg

And in the main timeline, the Androids were much stronger than Trunks' timeline.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2a6o6wx.jpg

Which would more than strongly imply they were more than twice Frieza's power. Which means if they reached that level, they would have gotten double the power of Frieza, and Trunks. And when they can manhandle a being that absorbed Android 17 who could utterly manhandle Android at a starting level (and Android 16 says that Cell shouldn't be that strong in Perfect Form which indicates it wasn't just simple addition, or at the very least it was), that indicates at the very least that they are 4 times stronger than Frieza and Trunks again. Considering Trunks actually got stronger than Perfect Cell who absorbed a being around twice as strong as his starting point (Trunks), that works out to around 6 times as powerful as a low estimate.
I believe in the Daizenshuu it was stated that Cell was 9 hundred million as well, so 6 times seems fair.

Now Trunks may or may not have been operating at that level when fighting the Cell Jrs, but we do know for a fact that his double ascended form was not a double multiplier (based on Cell being one shotted by Gohan). Which would mean his SS form had to have been at least above 450 million. Which would mean his starting point of 150 million more than doubled. And that's an absolutely low estimate of his power too. So when a Trunks who at the lowest is 3 times more powerful than Frieza and he can't damage Cell Jrs, it means that your entire point in this thread is wrong. Well, it would be when even a Trunks saga Trunks can't damage a Cell Jr but you get the point. Which means that you playing coy with Carver about SS2 having no feats just makes you look like an ass in the process.

As to the rest of your post... the increases stopped after the Cell Saga, not the Namek Saga. How else would we explain the Androids being eclipsed so completely and utterly? And then the increases apparently started anew when Super began.

And your post about Vegeta doesn't make sense again in response to Gohan. You're not speaking of cases where they go away and train for a while, in both examples you're using, Cell already knew exactly of their powers from their fights from the actual timeframe. Vegeta didn't fight Cell, lose, and then come back and eclipse him. The actual training is largely irrelevant in your example. Cell didn't have a starting point to judge things off of. Unless you considering him thinking Vegeta was a maggot when he first challenged him.
And the whole Cell pissing off Gohan thing was just Cell's way of testing a new power like Vegeta pride. Considering Gohan was already near his level, Cell goading him to get new power was a dumb move already. It was unexpected on his part but that doesn't mean that it overrules previous levels. Had Goku level Trunks transformed into SS2 at that level, he still would have gotten his ass handed to him by Semi Perfect Cell. Probably even Android 16. If they keep getting stronger however, and still have a double powerup in the back pocket at anytime, then that opens up a lot of doors for them. Which is why Gohan's transformation was so impressive. Because he was already near Cell's level when Cell was actually going all out. Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks could only get near Cell's all out level when they massively slow themselves down to a point of not being able to hit him, but Gohan can then go double that with way more speed and power. And had Gohan continued to train, conceivably even beyond that to a large degree.

All you do on this forum is argue against DBZ. It'd be like Carver saying he likes Superman. It isn't just this instance.

I admitted I was mistaken about Trunks vs Frieza. I didn't realize Frieza was heavily suppressed

Here's where you are making a mistake tho: You don't have to be double someone's power to completely own them. Look at the fights on Namek for example. Vegeta was less than 10% stronger than Dodoria and treating him like garbage. Similar with Zarbon after Vegeta got beat down. You make it seem like the only way the Androids could have beaten up Trunks and company was if they were multiple times their strength and that has never been the case. Hell it goes all the way back to DB where we see guys beating each other down with similar differences in power

The androids could have been around 10% stronger than Trunks to treat him like nothing. Hell Vegeta was actually on par with 18 and only lost cuz her energy doesn't drain. So no they were not double Frieza's power

Can you post the Daizenshuu numbers you are referring to? I only remember them going up to the very beginning of Androids Saga. If there are more than that could put this whole thing to bed.

You are making up power levels. Also, as carver himself pointed out earlier in the thread, I was just messing with him. I didn't expect you or others to get all up in arms over it.

I explain the increases like they've always been explained in Db and DBZ. a 5%-10% difference in power has always been shown to be MASSIVE. That has literal been the rule from jump. You and other seem to have forgotten that little bit

It does make sense in regard to Gohan. Cell had detailed files on all of the Z Warriors. He knew what their power was. Then he felt some of them up close himself and he absorbed 17 and we know 17 fought first hand against Vegeta and company. Cell would have been well informed about Vegeta. Now in about a day Vegeta would have, IYO, doubled/tripled or more his power and fought Semi Perfect Cell. Cell had no idea how Vegeta gained that power so to goad Gohan, who needed much less of a boost than Vegeta got wouldn't make sense.

I argued against DBZ against Superman. That's it. When else did I argue against them? It's hilarious that I say DBZ can't win one fight and all of a sudden fanboys jump out from the wood work and go "U H8 DBZ DERPY DERP!11!!!!11"

😂

Originally posted by Galan007
Sorry, should have specified: suppressed 4th form Freeza-level.

How far suppressed? 3%? 50%? 70%?

Originally posted by juggerman
Galan, one of the most knowledgeable here on DBZ, agrees with what I said(besides the Trunks vs Frieza part which I admitted I was mistaken about)

From what I can clearly tell he agrees (and I also probably would) with Ssj2 being 2x Full Power Ssj, not 2x Ssj.
Big difference, obviously.

Also, a strong case could be made for the manga itself implying the Ssj2 boost to be consistently more than the guidebook-source 2x, however this is another story (that's why I used the word probably in my previous sentence).

My opinion:
In the Cell era, a 2x boost in power was considered gargantuan... Bordering on insurmountable, even. And judging by the emphasis placed on SSJ2, I would tend to believe that it gleaned the single greatest Saiyan power increased we saw during that saga.

IOW, all other 'Grades' of SSJ in the Cell saga would have gleaned <2x increases, imo. I think that is a perfectly reasonable, and moreover logical assertion. You can fill-in the other characters(Androids, Piccolo, versions of Cell, etc.) accordingly.

Well I'm glad that's been cleared up

Originally posted by Sj_Sharp
From what I can clearly tell he agrees (and I also probably would) with Ssj2 being 2x Full Power Ssj, not 2x Ssj.
Big difference, obviously.

Also, a strong case could be made for the manga itself implying the Ssj2 boost to be consistently more than the guidebook-source 2x, however this is another story (that's why I used the word probably in my previous sentence).

I think people (possible you as well) are assuming I'm saying SSJ2 is twice Noob SSJ Goku vs Frieza level SSJ. That's not what I mean. I know Goku and company got stronger. I just don't think it was as big as some think