Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I promise you, ask anybody with weapons training if strength makes no different and they will strongly disagree. I understand the point you're trying to make, but you're not doing it well. Being stronger than somebody most certainly helps in blade locks and parrying. Not to mention offensively if you're delivering powerful strikes that force your foe back or force his blade back far enough to find openings. Same with blocking in general, strength can make a big difference.As yourself.... would you rather block a blow from a 14 year old kid or from a grow man who's incredibly strong. One would deliver a blow that could very well knock the blade from your hand... the other.. not so much. Again, I know what you're trying to say but you're discounting the fact that strength can help and does help. You know this to be true.
I don't think you understand how parrying works. You can be the strongest person around but if the guy who's blocking/parrying you knows what he's doing then it won't matter how strong your hits are. Because physics > physical strength.
I'd rather block a blow from a strongman competitor who doesn't know anything about swordsmanship then block a blow from a 14 yr old kid who's trained for it.
The power from a cut/stab also does not come from your strength but in how your body mechanics delivers the cut, how you manipulate the leverage of the weapon and how you put your weight behind it.
As I mentioned, if you understand the concept of the strong and weak part of the blade you'll understand that strength plays little part in it. Do you know what I'm talking about? The strong and weak part of the blade? I don't mind explaining if I have to I just want to make sure we're on the same page.
The premise was obviously on the grounds that skill was equal. Not sure why you're so against that notion that having greater physical strength than your opponent can be an advantage in a melee fight.
Also disagree with the notion that physical strength doesn't factor in the strength/power of one's blows. Skill being equal, a strong man will be able to hit harder with a weapon than a frail teenager.
edit: Are you looking at this purely from a Fencer's POV and a fencing foil?
Originally posted by Robtard
The premise was obviously on the grounds that skill was equal. Not sure why you're so against that notion that having greater physical strength than your opponent can be an advantage in a melee fight.Also disagree with the notion that physical strength doesn't factor in the strength/power of one's blows. Skill being equal, a strong man will be able to hit harder with a weapon than a frail teenager.
edit: Are you looking at this purely from a Fencer's POV and a fencing foil?
HEMA POV actually. My training is with longsword, sidesword and buckler, rapier and dagger, and spear.
I think my point is for strength to factor in a weapons fight, you'd need a massive advantage in strength for it to even make a difference. When skill is equal, a decent amount of strength difference won't really be as much an advantage as reach... and I think that's my main point.
Everyone here is commenting about how much stronger Leonidas is and completely neglecting Oberyn's reach advantage.
I guess my opinion is skewed by my training, but I can tell you that I'd rather get into a sword fight with someone who's 5x stronger than me rather than facing someone with a weapon 5x longer than mine.
Originally posted by FrothByte
HEMA POV actually. My training is with longsword, sidesword and buckler, rapier and dagger, and spear.I think my point is for strength to factor in a weapons fight, you'd need a massive advantage in strength for it to even make a difference. When skill is equal, a decent amount of strength difference won't really be as much an advantage as reach... and I think that's my main point.
Everyone here is commenting about how much stronger Leonidas is and completely neglecting Oberyn's reach advantage.
I guess my opinion is skewed by my training, but I can tell you that I'd rather get into a sword fight with someone who's 5x stronger than me rather than facing someone with a weapon 5x longer than mine.
Fair enough then, it seemed like initially you were saying that strength didn't/couldn't factor at all.
On the topic of these two and the reach advantage: I see Leonidas and his ability to easily cleave through a grown man's thigh allowing him to easily cut Oberyn's spear after a thrust, likely the first thrust.
As pointed out, Leonidas is a spear-fighter first and foremost; trained since childhood, he knows exactly what advantages Oberyn has here and would be expecting Oberyn to attack based on these strengths. If slow-ass Gregor was skilled and fast enough to cut Oberyn's spear, should be especially easy for Leonidas.
Originally posted by Robtard
Fair enough then, it seemed like initially you were saying that strength didn't/couldn't factor at all.On the topic of these two and the reach advantage: I see Leonidas and his ability to easily cleave through a grown man's thigh allowing him to easily cut Oberyn's spear after a thrust, likely the first thrust.
As pointed out, Leonidas is a spear-fighter first and foremost; trained since childhood, he knows exactly what advantages Oberyn has here and would be expecting Oberyn to attack based on these strengths. If slow-ass Gregor was skilled and fast enough to cut Oberyn's spear, should be especially easy for Leonidas.
I don't know. I doubt Oberyn uses spears that are easily cut in half. Gregor's sword is humongous and has way more mass than Leonidas' sword which means it hits a lot harder.
I just don't think Leonidas can cut the spear faster than Oberyn can impale Leonidas.
That said, if there is a spear-cutting feat in 300 then I'm definitely willing to retract my statement and change my mind.
Leo's sword has a thick/heavy front, it's basically made for hacking (unlike what the Spartan's really used) and as noted, he can easily cut through a man's thigh.
This is a replica, but it seems to be close to what was shown on screen:
The thigh cutting scene in during Leo's slow-mo solo run at the end of the first fight
Originally posted by Robtard
Leo's sword has a thick/heavy front, it's basically made for hacking (unlike what the Spartan's really used) and as noted, he can easily cut through a man's thigh.This is a replica, but it seems to be close to what was shown on screen:
The thigh cutting scene in during Leo's slow-mo solo run at the end of the first fight
Cutting through a man's thigh in one swing is impressive but it's not impossible. I mean, I can cut through a plastic 1 gallon water container (filled with water) with a sidesword. I've seen others in my school cut through a pig with a single slash of a long sword... so I assume a man's thigh isn't that far off from the pig. A rolled tatami mat is supposed to mimic the toughness of a man's limb... and we see iado practicioners cut through up to 3 tatami mats in one go.
But I've never seen anyone in real life cut through a spear or staff in one swing.
Of course I realize we're talking about a movie, so if there's ever any piece of hardened wood that the Spartans cut through with one swing I'd gladly change my mind.
Originally posted by Robtard
A gutted pig carcass isn't really comparable(screw the Ultimate warrior), what's comparable to a man's thigh is a man's thigh.Leonidas is beyond "real life".
So unless I specifically find Leonidas cutting through a pole, he can't cut through a pole, despite having other great hacking feats? Come on.
At least show him cutting something as tough (or tougher) as hardened wood.
In the first fight scene, Leonidas cleaves almost all the way through a Persian shield(or one of the Spartan's does, but since he's the strongest of them, if one did it, he can too).
As for the Uber Immortal, he was fast enough to dodge a spear thrust, catch it, then chop the shaft off in one quick move. He was bigger than Mountain, and a lot faster too. The only reason the fight lasted so long was because he tanked everything Leo threw at him, like when he got stabbed through the arm, then pulled the blade out by the blade against Leonidas trying to keep it in. He even survived getting stabbed in the eye with the spear head. He was just so tough and strong he ignored Leonidas skill and battered him into submission. Watch the fight. But Leonidas was strong enough to cut clean through Uber Immortal's neck from the ground after getting beat on and tossed around for a few minutes.