Raditz vs Aizen

Started by Dark-Kenshin3 pages

Two things on the Cell example: (1) That wasn't in the manga. Krillin was the only one repeatedly punching/kicking Cell without effect (the anime took some pretty extreme liberties since this is the same Trunks who was later slapping Cell around, albeit briefly against a suppressed Cell. Not to mention that part about Krillin using the kiezen on cell didn't happen either). (2) For DBZ purposes, having your guard down doesn't necessarily mean not having your arms up. For example:

watch?v=MVCTdHhOCgY

The Mummy concludes Goku has no openings in his "stance" and that he's guarding himself really well.

What it really boils down to is something else entirely. You'll recall when Krillin nearly killed Vegeta on Namek. How did he do this against someone who's fighting power was roughly 50x higher at that point? Very simple.

He lowered his defenses. Now how does this works precisely is never something we're given an explanation, but we do know that guard is a conscious effort and that it can be lowered and raised unlike someone such as Superman, whose durability is entirely independent of whether he wants it or not.

I'll give you another example:

The bullets fly right through Super Buu, someone whose well beyond planetary level in terms of power and durability. We've seen him effortlessly shrug off blows from SSJ Gotenks. So why do bullets work against him? Very simple. He allowed them.

Now Toriyama never comes right out and says it, but the very likely explanation here is that guard functions based upon how much ki one is pouring into their defenses (think of shields from Star Trek). This is not to say that there's no base durability without ki being a factor, but it does explain how Krillin can nearly kill Vegeta despite being 50x weaker, how Krillin can send Recoome flying, how Gohan and Krillin can hurt Frieza despite him being in his final form, how Piccolo can send Frieza flying despite him being in his final form and even how Sorbet can mortally wound SSJSSG Goku. It's consistent and makes sense.

I agree with Dark.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I'm not even sure why you're commenting to be honest. If you'd like to have an actual conversation, you're welcome to address the examples I provided of significantly weaker characters getting effective hits in due to the opponent's guard being down. You can also address why Majin Vegeta was lying to an unconscious Goku as to how he knocked him out so easily or why he simply had no clue what he was talking about. Your position requires disregarding significant portions of the source material and outright ignoring any stated explanation we're given as to how these events occurred.

Vegeta with Krillin specifically lowered his defenses. As for Vegeta knocking out Goku..there is a world of difference between that and you speaking about beam rifles hurting them. By your logic I could shank Goku in his sleep.

For most of the series their durability isn't significantly lowered when not paying attention. That is the reason my comment was so flippant, because you seem to be ignoring this by using a few specific instances, most of which have explanations.

Situations where specific justifications are given for a character's weakness are not to automatically be confused with low-end feats. Otherwise, every instance of Superman getting injured while under the influence of kryptonite is a low-end feat. Here, not only is Goku unaware of Frieza's minion, but we're given an explanation as to how it occurred. An explanation we've actually been given before for similar occurrences of Goku easily being KO'd or significantly injured. In Dragon Ball, villains would frequently exploit this tendency of Goku's.

Of course, if you'd just like to pop in and shoot your mouth off, have at it.

Again though I have no problem with other super powered beings catching people off guard, but you need to realize those people have power. With your beam rifle example..that doesn't pack anywhere near the punch of even the weakest of Frieza's minions.

Just to be clear I'm not saying they can't concentrate and increase their defenses, I'm merely saying that even when not concentrating it is not like they have extremely low durability, which is what you seemed to be implying.

So I apologize for being rude.

I agree with Surtur.

aizen could make raditz spend all of his energy like vegetadid against buu by making raditz fight an enemy that continously regenerates like buu. he could do this with kyoka