Can Talzin do to Palpatine what she did to Dooku?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Did you miss Padme dying with excellent health in a room full of medical equipment? You know the entire end plot of Revenge of the Sith? She literally died of a broken will.

Why did you think they were trying to break his will lol so that way Bane's Ghost could have his way with him? Use your deductive skills, they rarely even say the word kill on TCWs because its a children's show.

Also just to shut you up even further:

"I sense we have a great opportunity to strike a [B]deadly blow to the Jedi Order. But we must act swiftly"- Lord Sidious upon Dooku's arrival to Coruscant.

Deadly: causing or able to cause death. [/B]

Cite in the show where breaking Yoda's will would cause his body to shut down. Citing a complete different set of circumstances in order to justify your horrific comprehension skills isn't backing a claim.

Breaking Yoda's will would greatly weaken his resolve but it wouldn't kill him. It also failed and isn't close to the same thing Talzin did in the first place.

😂

Originally posted by quanchi112
So despite showing deaths over and over on the show they are too afraid to mention this would kill him. She died during childbirth which is a lot different than just dying on her own.

I already addressed this Sidious outright states they're going to strike a deadly blow to the Order. Wtf do you think this means? Do you understand what deadly means?

Also:
MEDICAL DROID: Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can't explain, we are losing her.

OBI-WAN: She's dying?

MEDICAL DROID: We don't know why. She has lost the will to live. We need to operate quickly if we are to save the babies.

She didn't die because of the childbirth. She died because she lost the will to live.

Cite in the show where breaking Yoda's will would cause his body to shut down. Citing a complete different set of circumstances in order to justify your horrific comprehension skills isn't backing a claim.

Ah, I see now. You're the canon troll who's been lurking about. I thought your username looked unfamiliar.

Breaking Yoda's will would greatly weaken his resolve but it wouldn't kill him. It also failed and isn't close to the same thing Talzin did in the first place.

Sidious seems to think it'd kill him considering you know he said they'd strike a deadly blow.

If I said, I'm going to strike a deadly blow against your family it certainly wouldn't be 'breaking your will'.

Again do you know what deadly means?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I already addressed this Sidious [B]outright states they're going to strike a deadly blow to the Order. Wtf do you think this means? Do you understand what deadly means?

Also:
MEDICAL DROID: Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can't explain, we are losing her.

OBI-WAN: She's dying?

MEDICAL DROID: We don't know why. She has lost the will to live. We need to operate quickly if we are to save the babies.

She didn't die because of the childbirth. She died because she lost the will to live.

Ah, I see now. You're the canon troll who's been lurking about. I thought your username looked unfamiliar.

Sidious seems to think it'd kill him considering you know he said they'd strike a deadly blow.

If I said, I'm going to strike a deadly blow against your family it certainly wouldn't be 'breaking your will'.

Again do you know what deadly means? [/B]

Your ridiculous stance has been mocked because it is asinine. It makes no sense. You said they won't mention killing someone despite the obvious brutal deaths on screen is laughable.

I know what it means in the context of which it was used. You also didn't respond to my entire quote because your case is laughable.

If you have a family of 10,000 soldiers that are at war with another family, then yes, breaking the will of the head of the household could be deadly.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The strain of the childbirth along with her losing the will killed her. None of this has anything to do with the attempt on Yoda. Weakening his resolve would strike a deadly blow to the Jedi order.

Prove this. Every canon source including the movie itself says she died of a loss will. Do you know what deadly means?

Your ridiculous stance has been mocked because it is asinine. It makes no sense. You said they won't mention killing someone despite the obvious brutal deaths on screen is laughable.

Mockery from a fool is hardly unexpected, court jester.

I know what it means in the context of which it was used. You also didn't respond to my entire quote because your case is laughable.

Lol Yoda himself believes he's dead when he wakes up. Its clear that he thought that it was capable of shutting down his body. Anyway, concession accepted.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Prove this. Every canon source including the movie itself says she died of a loss will. Do you know what deadly means?

Mockery from a fool is hardly unexpected, court jester.

Lol Yoda himself believes he's dead when he wakes up. Its clear that he thought that it was capable of shutting down his body. Anyway, concession accepted.

I am mocking your case not you because I'm a seasoned debater. Your ad hominem attacks are to cover up your bad case here.

So despite the attack failing and him surviving this somehow proves he would die. Continue to posture and it's hysterical considering your failure to even address Talzin's completely different ritual that physically kills someone when this doesn't. 😂

Originally posted by quanchi112
I'm a seasoned debater. Your ad hominem attacks are to cover up your bad case here.

Ah yes the internet tough guy trope. Right on time. Of course o great seasoned debater. Let me bow to your greater wisdom and failure to address my arguments.

I concede to your great seasoned argument and use of latin logical phrases.

Oh wait, no I don't. If you want me to take this seriously allow me to outline exactly why Talzin cannot kill Sidious in a ritual:

Point 1: It worked on Dooku so it would work on Sidious.
This is a ridiculous argument, the basis of which is a no limits fallacy. Where as Sidious is a seasoned Sith sorcerer who has troves of knowledge as well having mixed 'dark side magics with sith sorcery'

Point 2: A similar ritual failed to kill Yoda, Sidious' near equal
It has been stated by several canon sources and expressed through two on screen battles that Yoda and Sidious are nigh equals in terms of their prowess. Sidious states that he wishes to strike a deadly (meaning as if or relating to death) blow to the Jedi Order. Sidious and Dooku wish to break Master Yoda which would subsequently kill him. This is backed up by Sidious himself's statement as well as Yoda actually dying in the episode. At the end of the episode Yoda asks the priestess 'died have I?' and she states 'in a way'. And she also asks him to 'come back to him' all evidence suggesting that Yoda either died or was very close to death.
-Sub point b.: Individuals in Star Wars are capable of dying of a broken will. Thus breaking Yoda and killing Yoda are not mutually exclusive.
As I stated earlier, the medical droid explicitly states that the strain on Padme's body is in no way what is killing her. Thus the droid flatly stating that "Medically, she is completely healthy." it then goes on to state that it does not know why but she is dying but she is and she's lost the will to live. Given that the medical droid blatantly states that there are no medical reasons for her demise. Occam's razor would dicatate that the reason she dies is...well as the droid says, because she's lost the will to live.

Point 3: If Talzin could have killed Sidious she would have done so
If Talzin could indeed kill Sidious in this manner, she undoubtedly would have. THe Dark Lord and Talzin have been rivals for decades, and were partners before that. Its highly doubtful Talzin wouldn't have been capable of gathering a hair from Sidious when he managed to steal her son from under him.

Point 4: Sidious has shown the ability to overpower Talzin's magics before:
In Son of Dathomir Sidious manages to free Dooku from Talzin's control by blasting her with Sith lightning. Which once again backs the point that Sidious' familiarity with her magics coupled with his own massive skill in sorcery would certainly make him not susceptible to a ritual such as that.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
If you have a family of 10,000 soldiers that are at war with another family, then yes, breaking the will of the head of the household could be deadly.

The Jedi are not soldiers. If someone said 'I'm going to strike a deadly blow at the US' and that they were going to 'break Obama' shortly after that. I highly doubt your mind would go to them breaking his will.

People die of broken will in real life too, mang.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Ah yes the internet tough guy trope. Right on time. Of course o great seasoned debater. Let me bow to your greater wisdom and failure to address my arguments.

I concede to your great seasoned argument and use of latin logical phrases.

Oh wait, no I don't. If you want me to take this seriously allow me to outline exactly why Talzin cannot kill Sidious in a ritual:

Point 1: It worked on Dooku so it would work on Sidious.
This is a ridiculous argument, the basis of which is a no limits fallacy. Where as Sidious is a seasoned Sith sorcerer who has troves of knowledge as well having mixed 'dark side magics with sith sorcery'

Point 2: A similar ritual failed to kill Yoda, Sidious' near equal
It has been stated by several canon sources and expressed through two on screen battles that Yoda and Sidious are nigh equals in terms of their prowess. Sidious states that he wishes to strike a deadly (meaning as if or relating to death) blow to the Jedi Order. Sidious and Dooku wish to break Master Yoda which would subsequently kill him. This is backed up by Sidious himself's statement as well as Yoda actually dying in the episode. At the end of the episode Yoda asks the priestess 'died have I?' and she states 'in a way'. And she also asks him to 'come back to him' all evidence suggesting that Yoda either died or was very close to death.
-Sub point b.: Individuals in Star Wars are capable of dying of a broken will. Thus breaking Yoda and killing Yoda are not mutually exclusive.
As I stated earlier, the medical droid explicitly states that the strain on Padme's body is in no way what is killing her. Thus the droid flatly stating that "Medically, she is completely healthy." it then goes on to state that it does not know why but she is dying but she is and she's lost the will to live. Given that the medical droid blatantly states that there are no medical reasons for her demise. Occam's razor would dicatate that the reason she dies is...well as the droid says, because she's lost the will to live.

Point 3: If Talzin could have killed Sidious she would have done so
If Talzin could indeed kill Sidious in this manner, she undoubtedly would have. THe Dark Lord and Talzin have been rivals for decades, and were partners before that. Its highly doubtful Talzin wouldn't have been capable of gathering a hair from Sidious when he managed to steal her son from under him.

Point 4: Sidious has shown the ability to overpower Talzin's magics before:
In Son of Dathomir Sidious manages to free Dooku from Talzin's control by blasting her with Sith lightning. Which once again backs the point that Sidious' familiarity with her magics coupled with his own massive skill in sorcery would certainly make him not susceptible to a ritual such as that.

The Jedi are not soldiers. If someone said 'I'm going to strike a deadly blow at the US' and that they were going to 'break Obama' shortly after that. I highly doubt your mind would go to them breaking his will.

2. It wasn't a similar ritual as it caused no physical pain and was meant to attack his will. That isn't the same thing as all and is quite frankly laughable.

3. Maybe she didn't have a hair and wasn't as sloppy as Dooku. Saying there are only two options here is faulty and a logical fallacy. Palpatine was a lot more careful and cunning than Dooku was for the most part.

4. That isn't the same thing and breaking her concentration isn't overpowering her magic. It's countering it and breaking her concentration.

Geriatrics die of broken wills do I need to post proof to show you that it's possible but not likely to occur every single time.

Originally posted by quanchi112
1. This isn't a no limits fallacy it's another attack that hurt his apprentice so why wouldn't it hurt Palpatine ? Palpatine was more knowledgeable and operated on a higher skill level than Dooku but would still die if plainly shot by blasters or his head cut off by sabers. If you believe something wouldn't hurt him when it's been established in the Star Wars universe it clearly would then the onus is on you to prove it.

Red herring my man. You cannot train or prepare for a blaster bolt to the face. You can research and prepare to counter a ritual, or simply outright resist it as was displayed by Yoda.

2. It wasn't a similar ritual as it caused no physical pain and was meant to attack his will. That isn't the same thing as all and is quite frankly laughable.

"Died have I"
"In a way"

Seems to me like it certainly brought him to the brink of death. You are missing the point entirely however that Sidious, even with Dooku's power added to it failed to kill or break Yoda. Do you truly believe Talzin's magics to be superior to Sidious' sorcery?

3. Maybe she didn't have a hair and wasn't as sloppy as Dooku. Saying there are only two options here is faulty and a logical fallacy. Palpatine was a lot more careful and cunning than Dooku was for the most part.

Dooku was extremely cunning and careful actually. Second only to Sidious I'd argue. He managed to convince half the galaxy to follow him to war and masqueraded as the democratic leader of the CIS just as Sidious did the same as the leader of the Republic.

And if she didn't have a lock of hair, why didn't she attempt to get it? It's much less difficult to get a lock of hair than to lure the leader of the Galactic Republic to the outer rim to deal with her.

4. That isn't the same thing and breaking her concentration isn't overpowering her magic. It's countering it and breaking her concentration.

A. Sidious has demonstrated the ability to choke out Dooku from across the galaxy, so he could indeed break her concentration.
B. Prove it 'broke her concentration'. Sith lightning as we see is used in sorcery. How do you know he didn't free him with sith magic.

Geriatrics die of broken wills do I need to post proof to show you that it's possible but not likely to occur every single time.

Are you just ignoring the fact that Padme was blatantly stated to be 100% healthy medically? Or what?

I'm not sure of the consequences of Yoda's failure in the illusion, but it certainly didn't seem to be death.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not sure of the consequences of Yoda's failure in the illusion, but it certainly didn't seem to be death.

Explain why he thinks he died and why the priestess outright says he has in a way died?

What? If anything it's a reference to him being "reborn". Or the fact that he just thought he plummeted to his death...

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Red herring my man. You cannot train or prepare for a blaster bolt to the face. You can research and prepare to counter a ritual, or simply outright resist it as was displayed by Yoda.

"Died have I"
"In a way"

Seems to me like it certainly brought him to the brink of death. You are missing the point entirely however that Sidious, even with Dooku's power added to it failed to kill or break Yoda. Do you truly believe Talzin's magics to be superior to Sidious' sorcery?

Dooku was extremely cunning and careful actually. Second only to Sidious I'd argue. He managed to convince half the galaxy to follow him to war and masqueraded as the democratic leader of the CIS just as Sidious did the same as the leader of the Republic.

And if she didn't have a lock of hair, why didn't she attempt to get it? It's much less difficult to get a lock of hair than to lure the leader of the Galactic Republic to the outer rim to deal with her.

A. Sidious has demonstrated the ability to choke out Dooku from across the galaxy, so he could indeed break her concentration.
B. Prove it 'broke her concentration'. Sith lightning as we see is used in sorcery. How do you know he didn't free him with sith magic.

Are you just ignoring the fact that Padme was blatantly stated to be 100% healthy medically? Or what?

If two things can bring about death does that mean they bring about death in the same way and are comparable. Not at all. You still haven't even proven this ritual would have killed him.

So you undermine your own point by agreeing Palpatine is more cunning and careful. That was my point. You agreed. Move on.

Because the opportunity never presented itself and as you said he's more knowledgable than Dooku so he'd probably be at least familiar with the tactic unlike Dooku. Logic.

He force choked a subordinate and he took it. He accepted it. Not the same with Talzin. They have to be in visual contact to pull this off he just can't force choke him at an undisclosed location. Context.

Every force power or magic required concentration otherwise Dooku would have force choked Kenobi to death when he initiated the attack.

She was healthy which is fine but a childbirth still takes something out of you. Especially twins and to deny that is to deny common sense but her heart was completely broken and she lost the will to live. I don't believe Yoda would just wither away and die. He was a lot more mentally formidable than Padme even if his will had broken. Her will also wasn't broken in a ritual either.

😂

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yoda's ritual was designed to break his will. It wasn't designed to physically kill him. Dooku's ritual was designed to physically kill him. If you can't see the difference between the two you're either lying or incapable of logic.

And yet he did die...

I'll concede that they are not the same, but the principal behind them (essentially assassinating someone from a distance with a ritual) is the same.

If two things can bring about death does that mean they bring about death in the same way and are comparable. Not at all. You still haven't even proven this ritual would have killed him.

He died. What further proof is needed? Yoda himself believes he died which is confirmed by the priestess who says 'come back to us' and 'you died in a way'.

So you undermine your own point by agreeing Palpatine is more cunning and careful. That was my point. You agreed. Move on.

Its a fair point, and yet as I said its far easier to get a lock of Sidious' hair than to make him come to your powerbase across the galaxy while he's wearing the mask of Chancellor. In fact the idea of Sidious being able to secretly leave his office and travel across the galaxy is ludicrous considering even in today's world leaders can't sneeze without someone having it on camera. But alas I digress.

Because the opportunity never presented itself and as you said he's more knowledgable than Dooku so he'd probably be at least familiar with the tactic unlike Dooku. Logic.

You you concede that he'd be familiar with the tactic, but refuse to acknowledge he'd not have a plan to counteract it? L O L.

He force choked a subordinate and he took it. He accepted it. Not the same with Talzin. They have to be in visual contact to pull this off he just can't force choke him at an undisclosed location. Context.

You are aware Talzin's ritual does create a visual connection right? So...

Every force power or magic required concentration otherwise Dooku would have force choked Kenobi to death when he initiated the attack.

What?

She was healthy which is fine but a childbirth still takes something out of you. Especially twins and to deny that is to deny common sense but her heart was completely broken and she lost the will to live. I don't believe Yoda would just wither away and die. He was a lot more mentally formidable than Padme even if his will had broken. Her will also wasn't broken in a ritual either.

They explicitly state there is no medical reason why Padme is dying. If there was one, why the hell would the droid say 'we don't know why but she's dying'? It doesn't matter how her will was broken the point is that when it was broken she died of it plain and simple.

Occam's razor plain and simply indicates that she died of a broken will/ heart. That's what the medical droid says. It wasn't the childbirth. And what's more the likely millions of credits worth of medical equipment were all useless to save her. FFS this is Star Wars where people can build new arms and perform medical miracles, I highly doubt deaths in labor are even a thing anymore.

lol

Yoda didn't die...

Originally posted by ares834
lol

Yoda didn't die...

Could have fooled Yoda.

Pretty easy to do that.

He had a near death experience and the priestess used Star Wars gobbledygook to reflect that. Seems pretty logical.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He had a near death experience and the priestess used Star Wars gobbledygook to reflect that. Seems pretty logical.

Precisely, Sidious' failed ritual put him close to death. The completed ritual killing him is not some ridiculous conclusion, particularly given his language of dealing a deadly blow to the Jedi.