The OFFICIAL 'Is there more than one Matrix?' thread

Ushgarak said:
Well, there is a big deal with the Architect apparently dismissing the Oracle as the Mother. And no matter what you say your Eve analogy is flawed by the Mother not being there for the first two Matrices.

Are you certain that the Architect dismisses her as “the Mother”? I didn’t see it that way at all.

At best I think you could claim he was ambiguous on the matter.

And as I stated previously the Architect and the Oracle are the two most Omniscient and Omnipotent entities in the Matrix films (unless there are major characters, yet unrevealed).

Furthermore, the viewer (observer) was definitely left with the sense that the Oracle was a “good guy”, while the Architect was a more malevolent force. I honestly don’t see any other character on par with the Architect who could play his anti-thesis.

There is room for doubt, but the most direct interpretation of the Architect's scorn is that the Oracle is NOT the mother and it is still hotly debated.

But Tevesh is right, we should return to subject.

Tevesh said:
There is only one matrix. I've proved myself several times in this thread, and disproved many of the arguments supporting the idea that there is more than one matrix.

This is why I brought up Godel. The Wachowski brothers definitely understand (are fans of) Godel. And according to Godel it’s turtles all the way down. (i.e. A Matrix within a Matrix, within a Matrix …)

They are fans of just about ALL the great philosophers though, some of whom think entirely differently, so that is no good as proof.

We go by what we seein the canonical plots given to us and this at this point suggests otherwise. Speculation- even that based upon influences of the film- is secondary to film-based fact.

Right. In this film alone, there was the workings of Kierkegaard, Dostoevsky, Hume, Plato and Hagel. Dostovevsky and Hagel had competely different ideas the ideal state of living, yet both are a part of this movie.

Just because the Washowski brothers are fans of Godel doesn't mean that is what they planned the movie out to be. Your arguement that they like it is therefore invalid. The brothers have taken works from almost EVERYONE and put them together in this duology. They take works from Chrisitanity, Buddism, Hinduism, Greek mythology, tons of philosophy and the list goes on.

So your arguement of the Gopel fails as well, based on all of the other facts accumulated from the first two movies. I'm not saying you're wrong we are all speculating here, but based on what we've seen thus far, it is very very unlikely

Originally posted by Ushgarak And the Mother (it is dodgy of you to call her the Oracle as that is not yet known) did not come along until Matrix number THREE, as the film itself says, so your allegory fails in any case.

Not that I'm into that Adam and Eve theory, but how did you come to this? The only thing we know is that she found the answer after the crash of the second Matrix (btw: do you think the Architect created her too?).

The only other thing I can think of is the Oracle, and I'm pretty sure she stated she is as old as the Matrix. The Architect's 'please' when Neo speaks of the Oracle doesn't say much IMHO.

mmmm matrix within a matrix how very gay. When I left the cinema after my 1st viewing everyone (ok ok ok 3 people) were toiting the matrix within a matrix idea.

However that would make a shitty film really (And lets not get off track people it is a film that we are talking about) to go through all of that only to emerge in another matrix! bullshit that's not a fun story.

We can only debate this amongst ourselves, here are my points.
I think Merivinginan is an ex-One, I believe he made the choice to save Zion and his reward was power. (I base this on a few body language and subtle comments during Neo's 1st meeting with him). Also when his wife said that Merivinginan used to be just like Neo. So she wanted to kiss him to remember what it was like to kiss a man with great purpouse.

Who says that Bane was in a coma at the end of the movie? I dont remember seeing that mentioned. Just that he was a survivor from the Sentinal slaughter, I think that we are drawing conclusions where there are none in regards to this aspect. So this changes a few things as to what happened between Neo and Bane/Smith.

The french dude cannot be a former "one". he said that he had survived all of Neo's predacessors and he will survive him (Neo) as well. Did he survive himself? Of course not.

Bane was in a coma. The camera stopped at his face when he was laying unconcious right before the horrendous words came up: To be continued.

Yet again we (I as well) deter from the point of the thread.

As the video game suggests, Neo's mind brushed with the source when he was talking with the architect. He is now living in both worlds at the same time. He can now "feel" the machines. And if the connection between Smith and Neo is a constant open line, meaning that whatever new information Neo comes across Smith also learn and vice versa, that explains how Bane was able to survive the counter-attack after sabotaging it.

Whoever mentioned the fact that The Hammer was able to set off EMP blasts while not shutting down is not possible. EMP blasts disable ANY electrical equipment in the blast radius. That includes itself. There isn't a way to shield yourself from it, especially if it's coming from within the ship itself. It was not the Hammer's EMP blast that rendered Bane and Neo unconcious.

As a final point, if Zion was another matrix, by now (it's been standing for about a century or more) wouldn't someone have woken up from it, just as they have been waking up from The Matrix itself? No one has woken up from Zion because there is nothing to wake up from. It is real.

Xeeva said:
mmmm matrix within a matrix how very gay. When I left the cinema after my 1st viewing everyone (ok ok ok 3 people) were toiting the matrix within a matrix idea.

However that would make a shitty film really (And lets not get off track people it is a film that we are talking about) to go through all of that only to emerge in another matrix! bullshit that's not a fun story.

Based on the overall philosophical undertones presented by the Wachowski brothers in the two films (I haven’t seen the Animatrix yet) I don’t think the Matrix within a matrix idea is inconsistent at all. In fact, I think it is the MOST consistent explanation for what happened in the films.

Furthermore it is likely that reality is consistent with the Matrix within a Matrix concept, and ultimately these films are about philosophical reality.

We can only debate this amongst ourselves, here are my points.
I think Merivinginan is an ex-One, I believe he made the choice to save Zion and his reward was power. (I base this on a few body language and subtle comments during Neo's 1st meeting with him). Also when his wife said that Merivinginan used to be just like Neo. So she wanted to kiss him to remember what it was like to kiss a man with great purpouse.

If that is the case, then why didn’t the Merovingian or Persephone simply state that?

Also, why did the Merovingian tell Neo directly that he had encountered and defeated his previous 5 incarnations? If your theory is correct then why would the “Merovingian One” be encountering and defeating the “Neo One”???

With regard to Persephone and “the kiss”, I think she was merely trying to make the point that passion fades over Time.

She still loves the Merovingian, but their relationship lacks the passion it once had. (think about it … if Persephone was your woman, would you be getting a BJ from someone else ?)

Hello. I am aware that being that this is my first post on this forum, I am automatically placed at a credibility level well below any of the rest of you. However, you have to start somewhere and this doesn’t seem like a bad place to do it since I really never liked welcome forums.

One thing I would like to point out about myself though is that I’m here to argue opinions, not to pick or defend a sole side of the argument. I like to be open to any and all suggestions, even the less plausible ones or the more minority based ones.

I would like to start off by noting that I HAVE indeed read the entire topic. If there is any bit of information that was already mentioned that I ignored or passed right over, it is not because I didn’t read it, it’s because I forgot about it. When reading 8 pages of consistent arguing, some bits of information tend to stick in your head better while others fade right out.

Bah, I’ve been rambling so long I almost forgot what the topic was about…

One Matrix Or Two
Well I think no matter what there is no real way to know if there is one or two Matrixes short of being told. It has been left pretty open…

Some people have a bunch of times when it seems like it would only work if there was two Matrixes, such as Neo stopping the sentinels, etc. However some people have ways it would work without there being two Matrixes. On the other hand for some reason these same people tend to think since its possible with just one Matrix, its impossible for it to work because there are two…

For example some people think “He could have destroyed the sentinels because part of him is still in the source.”

Yes, that is true….it COULD be because part of him is in the source.

On the other hand, just because it’s possible for it to happen with only one matrix does NOT mean that it couldn’t be BECAUSE of two Matrixes.

Both ways are just theories. Having a counter-theory doesn’t make the initial theory impossible.

One of the more pertinent beliefs however is that there would always be someone who rejected the program...both of them. This is true. But think of a scenario like this.

Over 99% of the people stay in the first Matrix. The rest know it can not be real and go to Zion. But now Zion is so convincing, people actually believe they have escaped the fake reality. I mean, when you think about it the entire area is VERY convincing. Their history and so forth seems even more believable than the initial Matrix.

But I can understand the belief that someone would still not feel right. But….Maybe 1% of Zion's inhabitants have escaped the Real World.

Every time people enter the Matrix…such as Neo and them, the surrounding area doesn’t know they are from Zion. They assume they are normal people. They don’t know there is a Zion.

So likewise, wouldn’t it be possible for some people to plug themselves into Zion from the real world, and have everyone else believe that they are ACTUALLY from Zion, just as Neo convinces everyone in the matrix that he is actually FROM the Matrix?

There is a large problem with this theory though, and its “Why haven’t they told anyone”. Well…If Zion is a fake world, then no one knows what the real one is like. Maybe something they’ve seen or been told in the real world has convinced them to keep quiet about it in Zion. Who knows?

These are just ideas…I’m sure some people such Tevese, Serpent, and UshGarak could make 50 different counter-theories and reasons why these won’t work.

But that’s what I want to hear…alternate possibilities =).

And, since the current topic seems to be on the Merovingian…

The Merovingian
The Merovingian the Merovingian…Just what the heck IS the Merovingian? Well the oracle bluntly states he is a program.

Oracle: Yes, he disappeared some time ago we did not know what happened to him until now. He is being held prisoner by a very dangerous program, one of the oldest of us, He is called The Merovingian, and he will not let him go willingly.

Now some people suggest he was “the one”. I’m not going to say he isn’t, I’m not trying to draw conclusions here, but the only way its possible for him to be a program and be “the one” is if Neo is also a program, and the only way neo can be a program is if Zion IS indeed a Matrix of sorts.

On thing that softly suggests he is, is when Persephone said “He was like you” to Neo, implying that he was the one, and at one point in time felt the same way as Neo about the salvation of Zion (Making her an old age Trinity of sorts). But after the Merovingian restarted Zion, or whatever he did in the source, he became corrupted with power and the fact that only he knew what was really going on.

Which would also explain why when they were discussing the keymaker he said…

Merovingian: Oh yes, this is true, the Keymaker of course. But this is not a reason, this is not a why. The keymaker himself, his very nature is a means, it is not an end. So to look for him is to be looking for a means to do - what?

Neo: You know the answer to that question.

Merovingian: But do you? You think you do but you do not. You are here because you were sent here, you were told to come here and then you obeyed. (Laughs) It is of course the way of all things. You see, there is only one constant, one universal it is the only real truth - causality.

This makes it seem like he knows what the source is all about. But this doesn’t exactly state that he has been there. After all he is the trafficker of information and has encountered Neo’s predecessors, perhaps one of them told him. Speaking of encountering his predecessors…

One thing that heavily suggests he isn’t the one though…is when he says “Mock my words boy…Mock them well. I have survived your predecessors and I will survive you.” Kind of hard to survive yourself. The only thing I could think of, is the fact that he doesn’t say “ALL your predecessors” and being that he is one of the oldest, he could be from the third matrix…making him survive the fourth and fifth.

This is way off here, but when Neo starts bleeding, the Merovingian says “You see, he is just a man”. The keymaker was bleeding…he isn’t just a man. I know that he was just trying to imply that he wasn’t immortal and could be defeated…but still, the blood thing didn’t fit perfectly. More like an old puzzle where you have to jam in the piece.

Either way, I’m curious about the Merovingian but not nearly as much as his wife…And the weird computer noise it makes when she kisses people…

But that’s just what I think…

Personally, the whole idea of a matrix inside a matrix would be too much of a copycat off of "The Thirteenth Floor." I believe it's possible, but it would be totally lame if it were to turn out that way. When I first saw both the Matrix and Thirteenth Floor, I thought they were identical in their theme. If they ended the same, that would really ruin my day. in fact, the whole idea of Smith entering the real world through Bane is awfully close to the concept that was original with the makers of the Thirteenth Floor. Those who have seen it will know what I mean

Just out of curiosity … what’s a “Chog”?

ShadowTheChog said:
Well I think no matter what there is no real way to know if there is one or two Matrixes short of being told. It has been left pretty open…

Fortunately it will all be settled come November.

Over 99% of the people stay in the first Matrix. The rest know it can not be real and go to Zion. But now Zion is so convincing, people actually believe they have escaped the fake reality. I mean, when you think about it the entire area is VERY convincing. Their history and so forth seems even more believable than the initial Matrix.

But I can understand the belief that someone would still not feel right. But….Maybe 1% of Zion's inhabitants have escaped the Real World.

Here’s my counter question.

How does the First person escape from the Matrix unassisted from anyone already on the “outside”?

In other words, assuming that Zion is just another Matrix, then unless someone on the outside of Zion helps someone escape, then there is NO WAY for the information about the next higher level of the Matrix to reach anyone in Zion.

If there was no Morpheous to help Neo escape from the Matrix in the first film, would Neo have ever escaped on his own? I don’t see how. He would have just been a guy with a weird feeling about reality.

There is a large problem with this theory though, and its “Why haven’t they told anyone”. Well…If Zion is a fake world, then no one knows what the real one is like. Maybe something they’ve seen or been told in the real world has convinced them to keep quiet about it in Zion. Who knows?

Very plausible.

The Merovingian the Merovingian…Just what the heck IS the Merovingian? Well the oracle bluntly states he is a program.

I found the dialogue with the Merovingian one of the most interesting portions of the film.

I don’t believe that the Merovingian is a former incarnation of the One though.

When Persephone refers to the Merovingian as being like Neo once I think that she simply means he was passionate and adventurous about existence, whereas he has now become set and comfortable (predictable) in his ways.

And, as an afterthought, if Zion really was part of the matrix, why would Neo slip into a coma after stopping the sentinels. Obviously, if Zion is part of the matrix, then Neo realized that, and since he knew that, he should have had all the power he had in the oracle's matrix, and thus destroying the sentinels shouldn't have hurt him at all. I don't know, but the whole matrix within a matrix idea doesn't sit right with me.

Originally posted by The Serpent
Just out of curiosity … what’s a “Chog”?

...A chog is what happens when you want to type "ShadowTheHedgehog" but theres a 16 character limit.

Originally posted by The Serpent
Here’s my counter question.

How does the First person escape from the Matrix unassisted from anyone already on the “outside”?

We don't know what is on the outside. Maybe everyone is plugged in, not by machines, but rather by humans. All these humans would have to do is...push some buttons, and disconnect them from Zion. They'd wake up, ending up in the real world.

This does make you wonder how the first people escaped though. Obviously after the 1st matrix, the one picked 23 individuals. But... Who escaped to Zion from the FIRST Matrix and how?

Ok 1st off Merovingian (hereby known as Meri. name is too damn long)

Maby he was the 1st one. that would fit with his "I have survived your prdecessors" (Note he did not say ALL) he might have displayed a special trait that made him more suseptable to corruption and power, which was modified/removed for the future ONE"S.

Also how could he have survived the predecessors unless he was a bit ONE like himself, think about it, to go up against 4-5 ONE'S you need to be pretty powerfull yourself.

NEO and the 2nd matrix theory. I believe that his mind is in the matrix or at least part of it, this allowed him to control the sentinals from within the computer simulation, this caused him to go into the coma because allthough his mind in the matrix can handle all of the cool things that he does there, his real mind in the real world, proberbly could not handle the massive amount of stress that the intermind control of sentinals through his digital mind in the matrix.

This leaves me to believe that there is only 1 matrix, as if there was NEO'S mind in the real world would have handled the stress, as he would have realised that he was in another matrix (I dont think that the realisation of being in another matrix would be enough to put him in a coma, I think that from all he has seen and done, he would have accepted it and just realised that he had even more power. In that case he would simply go 'superman' and fly up and destroy all of the sentinals on the surface with a big smile on his face)

Still I reinstate the point that No-one syas that Bane is in a coma, Neo is. Just because Bane is in the same room as Neo at the end does not mean that he is in the same condition as Neo. He might just be unconsious/drugged/sedated etc.

My thoughts on how Bane survived. He was rescued by the Hammer and other ships before the Sentinals got to him, I dont think that he did the same thing that Neo did, as I dont think that Smith/Bane would destroy so many sentinals (some are assuming that he did, using the same power as NEO, therby putting him into the same coma) just to preserve a copy of himself. Surely doing so would help the humans (Smith hates Humans and the real world, remember that from the 1st film)

He would see him Bane incarnation as just another copy of himself, one that can be re-created as easilly. We get back to purpose as well. Smith/Bane found a purpose (Destroying the Human ambush/counter attack. it would be a contradiction to sabotage a counter attack and then destroy the counter attackers.

I think that he did not need/wish to survive the Sential attack and that he just got very lucky somehow and was rescued.

Now onto EMP theory. The Hammer did not set off an EMP to destroy the sentinals at the end.

1. Everybody would have heard the Hammer close by, as those hovercraft are bloody loud, watch the matrix again to see that.

2. The manner of the Sentinals destruction is not consistant with the effect of emp. the sentinals in the 1st film, just shutdown as they would do when their electrical sicruits are disabled. Howver at the end of the 2nd film, the Sentinals exploded! EMP does not do that.

My theory on the 1st ONE.

I believe that the 1st ONE just woke-up. he drastically realised that something was wrong in the real world and just refused to accept it. Therefore rejecting the matrix and waking up. Or the Machines unplugged him to start the creation of Zion and the start of their control.

Something has just occured to me. If what the Architect is saying is true, then why did the machines not know who/what Neao was at the very outset of the matrix. Lets think about this one, as I feel it is quite important.

Given that the Machines own/control the matrix, would it not be fair to assume that they can find this anomoly when it is created. NEO was around 30yrs old when he was unplugged, this would ive the machines around 30 years to look for this anomoly and set about controlling him.
I think that this disproves the Architect's statement to NEO, I think that the machines just tried to break the human spirit and came up with this scenario as it would be the most effective in breaking the human's will and hope. Therfore aiding in the destruction of Zion.

"Also how could he have survived the predecessors unless he was a bit ONE like himself, think about it, to go up against 4-5 ONE'S you need to be pretty powerfull yourself."

He said survived. He never mentioned hand to hand combat. He could've just ran away like he did with Neo.

"This leaves me to believe that there is only 1 matrix, as if there was NEO'S mind in the real world would have handled the stress, as he would have realised that he was in another matrix"

Who said he passed out from zapping the sentinels? :-P I personally think its too blatantly obvious. But who knows, maybe they were thinking "people will think this is too blatantly obvious" and put it in, and you could be right. Who knows.

"I think that he did not need/wish to survive the Sential attack and that he just got very lucky somehow and was rescued."

Well...What if no one else was going to enter the matrix as a result of the attack on Zion, and them all fighting. Smith needs a body. If no one goes to the Matrix, he can't steal one.

Originally posted by ShadowTheChog
Well...What if no one else was going to enter the matrix as a result of the attack on Zion, and them all fighting. Smith needs a body. If no one goes to the Matrix, he can't steal one.

What would Smith/bane's purpose be then in the real world. Surly not to kill NEO once and for all, I think that the 250,000 sentinals on their way down to Zion would be able to manage that!

MAYBE...

Bane triggered the EMP, thinking the sentinels would go down destroying Neo and Zion.

Then a sentinel came to him, he felt connected, and he knew he could destroy it. Being highly intelligent as well as aware of his connection with Mr. Anderson, he would have assumed Neo could stop them too.

Thus, for him to die knowing Neo could stop the sentinels would have been worthless. So instead he decided to live to go after Neo himself, with his newly found powers. (IE: Flying and such) Since he knew that now he was more of a match for Neo.

But, when he went to stop the sentinel he didn't know he'd pass out.

Until afterwards of course 😉.

If Zion were a Matrix (very unlikely) I do not think it would be the 1% of the 1% that would sunconciously reject it. It would be ALL of them. If you reject it based on your SUBCONSCIOUS denial (remember your CONSCIOUS thoughts are irrelevant to this) you will reject it wherever you are. It is the violation of this vital point of choice if Zion were a Matrix which turnes me off most about the idea.

Shadow, if you look at the way the thread (and previous ones where this first came together) was constructed, the reason that showing how these things could happen without there being a second Matrix is taken as good evidence that there isn't one is not because it disproves that idea in of itself, but because the ONLY reason people come up with the matrix-within-Matrix idea in the first place is that is because that is the only thing they thought explained these things. Once you do not NEED the Matrix-inside-Matrix idea to explain these things, it's existence becomes very tenuous as it starts to look like a shabby, clumsy, contrived pointless plot.

Let's face it, the ONLY reason a lot of peole think it is because of what Neo did at the end. Even the Bane thing (which is SO easily explained otherwise as to be amazing that people still think that proves anything) only really spins out because of that. No-one even seems to care that what Neo did to those sentinels does not even SEEM like the sort of powers the One has. This one thing has caused this massive misconception to spread on VERY little proof. Other explanations are far more convincing and consistent with the film.

And on a practical point, I simply cannot see thing thing about Neo's mind being seperated after contacting the Source AND their being a weak Matrix-in-Matrix plot. It's just not going to happen.

As for the First One, the only question is why he didn't drown/starve on awakening if he were not assisted by the machines (because it is canonical from the Animatrix that it is possible to free yourself). However... it's not really important, only trivial, and so can be ignored.

What do we know? The Architect wrote the Matrix program(s). The Oracle is a physic program created to investigate the human psyche.
So here’s this first idyllic (paradisic or insert analogy for whatever kind of heaven a religion has) Matrix and no human mind accepts it (original sin or choose your analogy). The machines write The Oracle to figure out why not. It/she realises we want a choice – even to live in hell if that is what we want. So okay, there is now the second matrix. But giving humans a right to choose even if it is only almost subconsciously to be plugged into the Matrix is a Paradox. Voila. An anomaly rises.
Outside all of this is the real world. A handful of humans survived the war and made a city. Or maybe more, but by now only ONE city survives. These humans hack into the Matrix wanting to free their fellow man. And they stumbled upon the first anomaly. The first One.
We’re now at the end of the second movie, and the only circumstantial evidence we could have for a second matrix is Neo stopping the sentinels. That is however explained without the use of such a bigger VR.
So, no. There is no matrix within the matrix.