Pope Francis: "Athiests can go to Heaven"

Though it needs to be pointed out the Pope is not God, has never spoken to God, and thus truly has no say in who does or does not get into heaven lol.

To claim you personally know the way an all powerful deity behaves seems the height of arrogance, especially since it's not like every Pope has been all "atheists can totally get in".

We are told it's a sin not to worship God, and since an atheist sure as hell isn't going to be going to confession this means you can sin and not repent and still get into heaven. Which if you can break one commandment and get in, why shouldn't you be able to break others, not repent, and get in? It makes it hard to take "God" and his rules seriously.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I get my moral judgement from the commandment of love other people, and that's consistent with my observations of the world as the motivation of moral judgement.

I don't think I'm morally a shittier person than you just because I'm Christian. I know plenty of Christians that are good human beings because they believe it's the right thing to do, not because they spend their time worrying about whether or not they'll go to hell. I've meant plenty of pompous arrogant Christians, plenty of loving Christians, plenty of vitriolic self aggrandizing atheists, and plenty of atheists who are amazing human beings.

Originally posted by Surtur
Though it needs to be pointed out the Pope is not God, has never spoken to God, and thus truly has no say in who does or does not get into heaven lol.

To claim you personally know the way an all powerful deity behaves seems the height of arrogance, especially since it's not like every Pope has been all "atheists can totally get in".

We are told it's a sin not to worship God, and since an atheist sure as hell isn't going to be going to confession this means you can sin and not repent and still get into heaven. Which if you can break one commandment and get in, why shouldn't you be able to break others, not repent, and get in? It makes it hard to take "God" and his rules seriously.

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
Dont understand this part.

It is simple. At the end of the day it is God who decides who can or can't get into heaven. The Pope has never actually had any contact with an omnipotent deity, so he's basically just guessing that God would be okay with atheists.

I have no doubt he will certainly claim God has spoken to him, but then don't they all?

Originally posted by Surtur
The Pope has never actually had any contact with an omnipotent deity...

You don't believe that God speaks through the Pope?

F#cking heathen.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
You don't believe that God speaks through the Pope?

F#cking heathen.

If he does then God is obviously bi-polar giving the wildly varying messages he has apparently given Popes over the years.

Originally posted by Surtur
If he does then God is obviously bi-polar giving the wildly varying messages he has apparently given Popes over the years.

Yeah. This one is perhaps a bit more divinely inspired than others.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Yeah. This one is perhaps a bit more divinely inspired than others.

Which honestly I am disturbed by any super powered being with a mental illness, especially supposedly all powerful ones. Especially when this thing apparently is in charge of the afterlife lol.

So "heaven" is run by a crazy person.

Eh, belief in an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God could bring one to the perspective of Christian Universalism, ie. the belief that everyone gets redeemed and gets into heaven, which is what I am.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Eh, belief in an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God could bring one to the perspective of Christian Universalism, ie. the belief that everyone gets redeemed and gets into heaven, which is what I am.

I understand, but if everyone gets redeemed then it really doesn't matter how badly one behaves during their life.

IMO it's a screwed up universe that has it so Hitler can get into heaven.

Originally posted by Surtur
I understand, but if everyone gets redeemed then it really doesn't matter how badly one behaves during their life.

IMO it's a screwed up universe that has it so Hitler can get into heaven.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
My personal belief is that we live in an imperfect world to have the opportunity to self-define ourselves, and that once we die we experience a perfect understanding of our lives and an emphatic experience of the impacts our lives have had on the world. This understanding causes people to experience through a form of empathy the negative impacts of their consequences, which I believe is a perfectly proportionate punishment for evil, and this experience also allows people to learn to move beyond their remaining flaws and reach a state of perfect existence in Heaven.

It more or less sounds like you are saying evil people are meant to feel bad about their choices for a bit before being allowed into paradise for all of eternity..

Originally posted by Surtur
It more or less sounds like you are saying evil people are meant to feel bad about their choices for a bit before being allowed into paradise for all of eternity..

Everyone deserves the opportunity to move beyond their inner demons.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
They suffer for being evil then stop being evil then get let into paradise for all of eternity is what I'm saying.

You assume that by attaining a greater understanding that suddenly these people would change their ways.

Originally posted by Surtur
You assume that by attaining a greater understanding that suddenly these people would change their ways.

If they don't change their ways though, they'll be essentially stuck in that state I suppose, and though theoretically someone could refuse to change forever, with that much of an understanding and empathy and an extended hand of forgiveness and love, in a practical sense I think everyone would eventually make that choice.

^ But how does this make up for what they did to people while they were alive?
Attaining enlightenment after the fact seems pretty weak to me. Especially in the case of mass murderers and the like

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Empathy is a rather transformative thing and I'm talking about empathy on a level we can't even truly comprehend.

If they don't change their ways though, they'll be essentially stuck in that state I suppose, and though theoretically someone could refuse to change forever, with that much of an understanding and empathy and an extended hand of forgiveness and love, in a practical sense I think everyone would eventually make that choice.

Does this not in a way sound like mentally torturing them until they come around to your way of thinking?

You sound like you're describing Ghost Riders "Penance Stare".

Originally posted by socool8520
^ But how does this make up for what they did to people while they were alive?
Attaining enlightenment after the fact seems pretty weak to me. Especially in the case of mass murderers and the like

Vengeance and justice are not the same thing.

Originally posted by Surtur
Does this not in a way sound like mentally torturing them until they come around to your way of thinking?

You sound like you're describing Ghost Riders "Penance Stare".

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Suffering in the physical universe is only finite and temporary, why should the punishment and rehabilitation for causing that be any different?

Vengeance and justice are not the same thing.

This offers zero incentive to lead a righteous life. At all. You can be a terrible person, watch your play by play, realize you were a d-bag, and then be forgiven. Sounds extremely unfair in the physical.