Pope Francis: "Athiests can go to Heaven"

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Evil is self-destructive, it's essentially people causing their own emotional suffering, while also having the understanding that their choices are the cause of their own emotional suffering. Why would a person choose to remain evil in that state when being offered forgiveness, love, and transcendence? What amounts to petty stubborness won't last for an eternity.

But don't you agree that what you're describing sounds a lot like the "Penance Stare"? If you do not know what that is..it is a power that makes the person feel all the suffering they have caused to anyone they have victimized.

Originally posted by socool8520
This offers zero incentive to lead a righteous life. At all. You can be a terrible person, watch your play by play, realize you were a d-bag, and then be forgiven. Sounds extremely unfair in the physical.

So in that instance, there would be punishment, but not eternal punishment, and a punishment that is rehabilitative and restorative.

Do you think it would be more just if the punishment was eternal or if the punishment existed without the rehabilitation aspect?

Originally posted by Surtur
But don't you agree that what you're describing sounds a lot like the "Penance Stare"? If you do not know what that is..it is a power that makes the person feel all the suffering they have caused to anyone they have victimized.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You don't "watch" your play by play. You come to an understanding so emphatic that you feel the impacts of your actions, which seems like the most proportionate punishment I can think of for any action.

So in that instance, there would be punishment, but not eternal punishment, and a punishment that is rehabilitative and restorative.

Do you think it would be more just if the punishment was eternal or if the punishment existed without the rehabilitation aspect?

In this scenario, I think the entrance into a heaven afterwards is a no-go. Some have affected far too many innocent people for them to get a pass, even if they learned their lesson after the fact.

Me personally though, I think that the allowance of people to suffer as a way of defining one's self is terrible. I feel like that is sadistic and pointless. Why create life to simply watch it suffer?

Originally posted by socool8520
In this scenario, I think the entrance into a heaven afterwards is a no-go. Some have affected far too many innocent people for them to get a pass, even if they learned their lesson after the fact.

Originally posted by socool8520
Me personally though, I think that the allowance of people to suffer as a way of defining one's self is terrible. I feel like that is sadistic and pointless. Why create life to simply watch it suffer?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
That's where we differ then. I believe everyone deserves redemption.

If we were created in a perfect complete state of existence, essentially already at the final end, we wouldn't be defined through our own choices. The fact that we are created in an imperfect state in an imperfect world allows us to define the path we take to that final end. It allows us the opportunity to do good not because we had to but because we chose to, it allows us to impact other people's lives so we can have the opportunity to experience such opportunity, so we can progress and overcome challenges as a species through our choices and helping of one another. The limited degree of suffering we experience over this limited amount of time would be nothing compared to the infinite degree of love/happiness/connection that would be experienced in heaven over an infinite stretch of time, yet because of that limited imperfection that is proportionately nothing in the grand scheme of things, we would have a state of being that is partially self-defined.

I'm sorry but I just cannot agree with your position when seeing the actual suffering of others. How is being tortured self defining? Abused? What is the purpose of children starving to death or being made child soldiers/slaves? Why do others have to deal with being victims of sex trafficking or extreme violence while others only have to deal with afternoon traffic and the occasional loss of a family member? How's is this okay, even if only for a relatively short period of time? And then you're saying, that it doesn't really matter in the end because someone will feel your pain at some point, but then because he/she is remorseful, they will ultimately get the same prize as you. That doesn't sit well with me.

Originally posted by socool8520
I'm sorry but I just cannot agree with your position when seeing the actual suffering of others. How is being tortured self defining? Abused? What is the purpose of children starving to death or being made child soldiers/slaves? Why do others have to deal with being victims of sex trafficking or extreme violence while others only have to deal with afternoon traffic and the occasional loss of a family member? How's is this okay, even if only for a relatively short period of time? And then you're saying, that it doesn't really matter in the end because someone will feel your pain at some point, but then because he/she is remorseful, they will ultimately get the same prize as you. That doesn't sit well with me.

But what I described as an imperfect world and state of existence being in effect so that we have a greater state of existence and the room for improvement to self define our own improvement. You asking me why suffering exists in an imperfect world is basically you asking me why an imperfect world is imperfect, and my response to that is if we were created perfect in a perfect world we'd have no opportunity for self-definition.

I believe the suffering we experience in this life is justified in the end not because somebody else suffers for what they've done to you, but because you ultimately reach an eternal state of perfect existence in heaven, and because the imperfect state we were born into allowed us each to self-define ourselves and reach that perfect state possessing individuality, something we wouldn't have had if we were initially created conformed to a perfect world.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Eh, belief in an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God could bring one to the perspective of Christian Universalism, ie. the belief that everyone gets redeemed and gets into heaven, which is what I am.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Ah all right, so you're a fake Christian. That's cool. Though frankly delusional IMHO, your kind are more likable than real Christians at least.

There are various sects of Christianity which hold opposing beliefs, and since my belief about Hell isn't the norm in this time period, I'd say it's more accurate to call me a non-Orthodox Christian. Calling me a fake Christian implies there is something ungenuine about my nature when my religious beliefs have played a significant role in shaping who I am.

Hes the friggin pope

He's not perfect and I don't agree with everything he says, but Pope Francis is not only turning out to be an improvement over the last two popes, but a ridiculously vast improvement.

The Catholic Church was smart to elect him, they were hurting with their archaic views.

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
Hes the friggin pope

What was this statement supposed to be in response to?

Anyways:

Inside the Vatican’s pornographic bathroom.

Originally posted by Robtard
He's not perfect and I don't agree with everything he says, but Pope Francis is not only turning out to be an improvement over the last two popes, but a ridiculously vast improvement.

The Catholic Church was smart to elect him, they were hurting with their archaic views.

that the pope can do whatever he wants /sarcasm

Originally posted by Emperordmb
and steering away from arrogant self-righteousness and judgement.

It is interesting though that there is not merely a small percentage of Christians who behave like this, yet I would wager if you pulled any of them aside and asked them if they love Jesus they would say "yes".

Yet Jesus(the one from the bible) would no doubt find a decent portion of their behavior more or less horrifying.

Originally posted by Surtur
It is interesting though that there is not merely a small percentage of Christians who behave like this, yet I would wager if you pulled any of them aside and asked them if they love Jesus they would say "yes".

Yet Jesus(the one from the bible) would no doubt find a decent portion of their behavior more or less horrifying.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
The humble loving types are hardly a small portion either, but yes I admit that the arrogant types are much more common than I'm comfortable with. Every time I see a Christian being a douche it emotionally ****s with me on a visceral level, because it gives people another reason to hate Christians, and degrades a very important part of who I am as a person in the eyes of others.

Meh....I don't worry about it. Atheists haven't been known to be super nice about their beliefs, or lack thereof either. There have been times that I have been more arrogant than I would have liked in religious debates and I apologize. When in a debate as emotionally charged as Religion, it's hard to tone it down sometimes.