Originally posted by The Ellimist
Galen says himself that Sidious is toying with him. Excepting his oneness esque final moments, the SW database is reasonable in concluding that he's "no match" for the Emperor.
Granted he may not be a "match" but it doesn't mean he didn't provide Sidious a challenge as we can acknowledge based off the scan. Also Galen never says Sidious is toying with him, just that he's stronger then he's letting on.
Originally posted by MythLord
Now Syndicate, be reasonable. We all know Palpatine was just goofing around and let Marek throw him around just to taunt him so he can fall to the Dark Side. Also, DE Luke brought down Imperial Walkers and deflected blows from them, plus he's rivalling a superoir Vader as of Return of the Jedi already... nevermind a Luke that improves nine years later.He'll stomp every round.
Would have to disagree with you there.
Also all those feats you mentioned for Luke have been replicated or been surpassed by Galen.
I can agree that he'd likely take saber but he'd lose in the Force. All out could be argued either way.
Originally posted by Syndicate
Would have to disagree with you there.
Not surprising. It's funny how you have no counterargument, though. It amuses me how you appeal to ignorance, especially when we have conformation that Sidious purposefully let Galen attack him:
Then, of course, there is this:
Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Also all those feats you mentioned for Luke have been replicated or been surpassed by Galen.
Um, what? Being substantially ahead of Vader in both sabers and the Force is surpassed by Marek? Casaully deflecting and throwing around Imperial Walkers is surpassed by Marek? Managing to survive and deflect Dark Empire Sidious' lightning is surpassed by Marek? Managing to land a telekinetic hit on an actually serious Dark Empire Sidious is surpassed by Marek? Hardly.
I can agree that he'd likely take saber but he'd lose in the Force. All out could be argued either way.
I don't need a counterargument since you have no definitive evidence. They exchanged force attacks Sidious electrocuting Galen and then Galen stood again drawing on strong emotions to blast Sidious with TK and lightning before Sidious falls to the floor. Sidious likely does want Galen to give in to the Dark Side so that he can strike him down and have a worthy successor to continue the RoT line.
As I said above Galen may not have matched Sidious but he gave him a heck of a fight similar to Yoda.
In regards to the Force, yes as you were talking specifically about force feats. Since I've mentioned repeatedly that I believe DE Luke is superior as a lightsaber combatant I won't justify your second inquiry with a response. "Throwing around" Lol. Buckling it I think you mean, and yes, it is surpassed by Marek with feats like powering an ore cannon that pierced through a Star Destroyer, bringing down the supports of an orbital superstructure, guiding the descent of a falling Star Destroyers, casually blasting hundreds of droids and being a clear superior to Vader in the Force.
Given their respective feats I'd have to disagree. Luke has improved by an unknown degree from his RotJ incarnation who was a match for RotJ Vader. Galen beats TFU Vader who improved by an unknown margin by RotJ. Luke's best saber feat by DE remains matching Vader in RotJ. I'm willing to say DE Luke would be the superior duelist but it's not by some grand margin given their respective feats by this point in time.
For your viewing pleasure.
Soon the foyer was full of the twitching, smoking bodies of the Temple’s hapless guardians. He began to tire, not from exertion but from the tedium of knocking down droid after droid, to no apparent end. There might have been thousands of them.
Deactivating his lightsaber, he took a deep breath. With one mighty exhalation of power, he blasted all of them—those in pieces and those approaching with needle-tipped fingers and vibrosaws upraised—out of the foyer doors. Then he blasted the rubbish piles after them. He kept pushing until a dark cloud soared out over Raxus Prime’s hideous landscape—an artificial hurricane full of droid golems.
When the foyer was clear, the apprentice straightened. He was no longer pushing with the Force, but the floor beneath him shook nonetheless. A heavy booming sound came from deeper in the Temple, and was getting louder. He had certainly attracted someone’s attention now.
-- The Force Unleashed
As they reached for orbit, he watched the Temple retreat behind him until the outline of its ludicrous grandeur was barely discernible among the surrounding junk hills. He could have knocked the ridiculous toy castle down around Kazdan’s ears with one Force push. If only it had been so easy for his Master to erase the Jedi from the galaxy. Years after the Purge, here he was continuing that great work. Perhaps it would be finished in his lifetime. Perhaps he had already killed the last of the remaining Jedi. Perhaps now his Master would regard him as truly worthy.
-- The Force Unleashed
He broke off communications to block a downward slash that almost knocked him flat. Glancing around for Kota, he was relieved to see that the general was nowhere nearby. Now he could summon the full power of the dark side. Drawing on the sense of betrayal and shock he had felt on seeing the figure waiting for him—this deadly, dark assassin who might or might not have something to do with Darth Vader—he pushed with all his might.
His ears rang, such was the energy he released. The dock buckled underneath him; rivets popped and welds tore. His assailant went flying across the wide space, arms spread wide apart. The saber-staff cut a long, twisting line in the metal floor as its owner rolled and came up standing.
-- The Force Unleashed
The answer came in the form of blasterfire from the troopers, a barrage from the Uggernaughts, and a combined charge from the two assassins. He whirled and leapt, filling the air with reflected energy. All thought ceased; his connection to the Force became deeper than it ever had been before. He moved with grace and pure reflex, ducking under saber-staff blows, hurling troopers bodily at their Ugnaught allies, tossing walkers off the dock, and even raining supplies from one of the balloons above.
The crew of the balloon bailed out in a small speeder. Seeing it abandoned gave him an idea. When his enemies regrouped for a second combined charge, he wrenched the balloon physically downward from the sky, crashing its entire weight down on them all—and then, when the petals of the explosion were at their peak, sweeping the entire mess off the dock with one cathartic flexure of telekinesis.
He stood in a tiny dome of clear space, exhaling pure energy, as the circle of burning debris rained down through Bespin’s thin, cold air below. Triumph and satisfaction filled him like pure helium, buoying him upward
-- The Force Unleashed
The Moorings were larger even than he had guessed from the brief plans displayed by the astromech droid. Its mistress's instructions had been simple" destroy the moorings and the skyhook would be ruined. That sounded deceptively easy, given the amount of fortification and security in place.
Simplicity suited him, however. He didn't want to think, to have to agonize over motives and methods. He just wanted to act. With none of the joy he had felt while assaulting the lodge and with none of the challenge offered by the black Imperial Guards on Bespin, he plowed through the faceless stormtroopers as a wampa would stride through snow. Sith lightning crackled; bodies broke under his irresistible telekinesis; his mind influenced the decisions of officers, who ordered their underlings to attack one another in droves. None could stand up to him and survive.
When he reached the base of the skyhook, he was momentarily given pause. How to bring about the ruin of six constructs several stories high? Their super-strong materials were designed to handle the stresses of holding the massive station directly above, against all the laws of physics. How could he overcome their resistance?
The answer, as always, lay in the Force. The Force was beyond physics. The Force could not be resisted, when wielded by confident hands. The Force would always be sufficient.
Turning his back on the body-strewn battlefield, he put both hands on the base of the nearest mooring. Closing his eyes and his mind to all forms of distraction, he imagined himself at one with the metal, permacrete, and stone. He felt the mooring’s strengths and its weaknesses. He resonated with it, until it was hard to tell where his hands stopped and the mooring began.
When he could achieve no greater focus, he reached out for the dark side and let it guide him.
Energy came like a dam bursting, as wild as every predator on Kashyyyk combined but as pure as a laser. He tilted his head back and relished the wonder and terror of what he had brought into being. This was a power far greater than Sith lightning, designed for one single task. He lost himself utterly in that task. He became destruction.
The mooring shook. Its more delicate components—nanowires, sensitive self-regulating systems, microscopic hydraulic channels—fused almost immediately. Once the complex processes maintaining its stability were disrupted, a chain reaction began that could not be stopped. Pressures mounted in areas close to exceeding their maximum load; hairline cracks formed and spread; a deep vibration sprang up that could not be dampened. Even if left to its own devices, the mooring would shake itself to pieces in minutes.
The Apprentice maintained his assult until hairline cracks became gaping rents and the vibrations shook the world, howling material agony over the renewed firing of blaster cannons. When the first shower of boiling dust and pebble-sized fragments rained down on him, he decided it was time to step back and take stock--and to prevent some hapless stormtrooper creeping up on him and shooting him in the back.
He opened his eyes and looked up. The mooring was barely recognizable as the same structure. Electrical discharges danced across its conduccting surfaces. Ultrastressed permacrete flowed like treacle. Larger fragments began to fall and he batted them away with the Force, feeling no more drained by his exertion than he would have from a light run. He almost smiled at his accomplishment, but one stark fact sobered him to the core.
One down. Five to go. The Imperials were rallying. They needed to be reminded of who they were dealing with. While crossing to the next mooring in line, detonated fuel tanks and exploded ammunition stores. AT-STs cracked open like seedpods and burst into short-lived flames. He reached his target without encountering serious resistance and brought it down as he had the first.
By now the Imperials on the ground were calling for reinforcements from above. A trio of TIE-Fighters shrieked down through Kashyyk's atmosphere, stiching the blackened permacrete with needles of fire. He laughed mirthlessly. They considered that a solution? With a well-timed nudge on the lead TIE-Fighter's port solar gather panel, he sent it tumbling into the permacrete, where it exploded instantly. The impack shook the ground beneath his feet and sent cracks spreading across its face.
That gave him an idea. When the two remaining TIE-Fighters came around for another pass, he sent them both into the third and fifth moorings. The fourth took so much collateral damage that it fared almost as badly as its siblings. Only one mooring remained.
-- The Force Unleashed
Kota’s voice unexpectedly came in reply. “What’s going on, boy?”
Can’t you see it, he wanted to say, then realized who he was talking to. He described the scene in as few words as he could, unable to tear his gaze away from the sight of the disintegrating shipyards. Huge, molten chunks were tearing free and tumbling either out into deep space or down into lower orbits while further explosions continued to tear the facility apart. The scaffolding around the nearly completed Star Destroyer had bent and torn completely away, leaving the ship free to power down into the atmosphere of Raxus Prime. Already it was visible as a distinct triangle glowing orange around its leading edges and conning tower. It was coming directly toward him.
It was aiming for him.
“Juno can’t fly the ship at the moment,” said Kota firmly, “and neither can PROXY. We have to find another solution.”
“What’s wrong with Juno?”
“Concentrate on what’s important, boy. That Star Destroyer is coming down fast. You’ll never get clear in time. You need to pull it into the cannon.”
The apprentice was temporarily lost for words when he realized what Kota was suggesting.
Kota wanted him to move the Star Destroyer using nothing but the Force.
“You’re insane,” he gasped. “It’s massive!”
“What is mass?” Kota said. “It’s all in your mind, boy. You’re a Jedi! Size means nothing to you!”
Kota’s voice had changed. The surly, drunken slur was completely absent; in its place was the durasteel bark of the seasoned combat veteran the apprentice had first met.
“Can you hear me, boy? Reach out and grab that ship, or you’ll die on this trash heap!”
The Star Destroyer was growing visibly larger and hung like a burning, triangular moon low in the sky of Raxus Prime.
You’re a Jedi! Size means nothing to you!
He wasn’t a Jedi but the message was the same. The Force didn’t recognize big or small, heavy or light, hard or easy. The living flows of the galaxy encompassed all scales, from the very small to the extremely large. The Star Destroyer was part of it, and so was he. The Force bound them as surely as gravity. He could make its invisible muscles flex, if he dared.
Had his Master ever done anything like this? Had the Emperor? Had any Sith or Jedi in the history of the galaxy?
He doubted anyone would ever know about his success or failure in the next few minutes.
“Be quick about it, boy!”
Fast or slow were also irrelevant to the Force, but the apprentice took Kota’s point. The sooner he started, the sooner it would be done.
Deactivating his lightsaber and attaching the hilt to his belt, he adopted the opening stance of the Soresu form, with his right arm and fingers outstretched, pointing at the Star Destroyer. His empty left hand he tucked in next to his heart. With his legs braced firmly in the trash, he reached as deep as he had ever reached into the Force, and then went farther still, feeling as though a mighty chasm had opened up under him and his mind and will plunged down into it. The chasm filled. His mind opened. The physical existence of the Star Destroyer slid painlessly inside.
Nearly sixteen hundred meters long and capable of carrying a crew in excess of thirty-seven thousand, the ship was a familiar design. Its engines and armament weren’t fully installed, but its Class One hyperdrive would have taken it anywhere in the Empire at speed, there to deploy walkers, fighters, barges, and shuttles. Armed with a host of turbolaser and ion cannons, plus no less than ten tractor beams, it could have blockaded an entire system on its own. The reinforced durasteel hull was solid enough to rip a gouge in Raxus Prime that might take centuries to fill. Scavenger droids would have a field day when it came down.
Wherever it went down …
There is no wherever, he told himself. There is only where I tell it to.
Focus.
The tip of his right index finger and the Star Destroyer became as one in his mind. Every nut and bolt and plate and wire of the massive machine was contained within that tiny space. It wasn’t hard to move an arm, a finger, a single human cell. He could direct one barely without thinking, so why not the other, too? Instinct was clearer on that point than the workings of his mind. Ignoring perspective, the two were about the same size in his field of vision.
Except the Star Destroyer was growing larger with each passing second, and waves of TIE fighters and TIE bombers were pouring forth from its brand-new hangar decks. Laserfire cut huge super-hot channels through the atmosphere ahead of them.
The apprentice ignored it all. While the illusion held, he moved his hand a very slight distance to his right. The sensation of containing a vast, million-ton machine in the tip of one finger was deeply disorienting. He felt as though every muscle fiber, nerve, and bone groaned along with the metal seams and joints of the ship. What it felt, he felt, too, and even a small acceleration had a profound effect on such a large scale. It resisted with all the momentum it possessed. Hatches swang open; rivets popped; bulkheads twisted; pipes burst.
The Star Destroyer didn’t appear to have moved much in the sky. It was still coming in low on the horizon, aiming to pass over him and strafe him from above. He shifted his hand a second time, but instead of changing its course he mistakenly gave it a slight tumble. He needed to apply the Force the right way for this to work, taking the growing forces of friction and the shifting of its center of gravity into account. A spinning Star Destroyer would do more damage than one burying itself nose-first into the cannon and its superstructure. Damage was good, when it came to destroying the Emperor’s handiwork, but too much damage could destroy him and perhaps the Rogue Shadow as well under a deadly rain of molten shrapnel.
Bring it down in one piece, he told himself. Bring it down hard.
The ship growled and squealed in metal torment. He was getting the hang of it; he could see how its course was slowly shifting. As wide across as his outstretched hand now, it was hitting the atmosphere at a steeper angle than he had intended, burning bright red and already gouting a trail of black smoke and sparkling debris. He became aware of a sound communicated through his feet: a rumbling much deeper and more sustained than the pounding of the cannon, which had fallen silent after the firing of the third projectile. The Star Destroyer’s incomplete frame was acting like a giant tube, and the atmosphere was resonating inside. His whole body sang with it.
More. The Star Destroyer was really picking up speed now. The thickening atmosphere had a slight braking effect, but nothing could prevent the inevitable. It was going to hit soon. A wild exodus of droids ran past him, fleeing the crash site. The TIE fighters it had launched raced ahead of the chaotic atmospheric waves it generated. He ignored them and concentrated on shifting ground zero as close to the cannon as he could.
Sparks danced in front of his eyes. The edges of his vision faded to black. Light and dark swirls spun around him, wraith-like. He felt momentarily faint and wondered if it was possible to dissolve into the Force. He was a speck caught in the updraft over a forest fire—yet somehow he had the audacity to try to command the fire to do his will.
Who did he think he was?
A sudden panic almost made him lose control. The Star Destroyer, now a burning, shrieking meteor, filled his entire forward vision. The hull was peeling away in fiery, golden strips, each one weighing hundreds of tons, exposing the darker skeleton beneath. It looked like a death’s-head, a ghastly mask not dissimilar to his Master’s, but one molten like lava. This could well be the end of everything, he thought distantly. Of him, of his plans, of his feelings for Juno, and of the boy called Galen who had lost a father a long time ago and whose grief had already been effectively erased.
But his name had survived, and names had power. The apprentice clutched at it with desperation, needing to regain control of the Star Destroyer lest it tear itself apart and disperse the impact. He needed to find his focus again, to ignore the feeling of dissolution eating at the edges of his self, and to tip the balance of power back toward him.
Galen had stood up to Darth Vader as little more than a child. Galen had wrested the lightsaber from a Dark Lord of the Sith and stood bravely in the face of death. Galen may have been ground down by years of training and darkness since, but was he truly gone—or had he just gone into hiding until the opportunity came to emerge back into the light?
Are you there, Galen? I need your help!
No answer came.
The Star Destroyer’s catastrophic reentry made the world shake. There was no time to try again.
For Juno, then.
He gritted his teeth and snarled at the sky. The dead weight of the Star Destroyer shifted one last time, changing its angle of descent just enough to hang together those last few hundred meters, but not enough to risk bouncing. Only seconds remained before it hit and it was still getting bigger. It was impossible that the sky could contain so much metal!
Abandoning his control over the ship, knowing there was nothing now that he could do to alter its course, the apprentice staggered backward, dazed. The Force fled from him, leaving him wrung out and drained. With a sound like the world ending, the Star Destroyer completed its first and final journey. It hit the cannon, exactly as it was supposed to, and the sky turned white. The ground buckled beneath the apprentice’s feet. He pinwheeled, unable to find his balance, as a tsunami of junk and waste rose up ahead of him and blotted out the sun.
-- The Force Unleashed
Focus, he told himself. Undirected power was power wasted. Gritting his teeth, he gathered the energy and directed it down his arms, into his hands. Blue light strobed across his vision as the lightning flowed into the wires and from there into the hyperdrive turbines. Groaning, then shrieking, the massive engine came alive. Damaged, completely out of alignment, and barely controllable, the turbine shook with propulsive power, then strained against the braces still holding it to the corvette’s warped chassis.
-- The Force Unleashed
A rancor bearing a Felucian rider thundered through the forest, crushing delicate life-forms beneath its clawed feet and sniffing for his scent. The apprentice jumped from mushroom cap to mushroom cap until he was in a position above the rider’s head, then he leapt down with lightsaber swinging. The rider’s organic headdress covered everything from the neck up, as with all the warriors. He had some Force resistance, but he couldn’t withstand Darth Vader’s apprentice for long. Once the rider was dispatched, he brought down the rancor with a stream of Sith lightning that made its eyes shine like the headlights of a city speeder. It died with a roar that echoed through the jungle.
-- The Force Unleashed
Automated weapons emplacements spotted him instantly. Red weapons fire stitched lines of explosions across the station’s patchwork hull as he ducked between the AT-AT’s massive legs. Scooping up components from the nearest construction conveyor belt, he threw a series of high-speed missiles at the turrets, knocking five out of commission. A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.
The quartet had already started firing at stormtroopers converging on the scene. A furious exchange of blasterfire painted the air thick with energy. The apprentice deflected anything headed his way as he hacked into the side of the AT-AT and dropped into its munitions bay. The crew within was no threat, killed by the lightning, but he was careful not to knock any of the charges in case their contents had become unstable. He didn’t want it to blow up just yet.
-- The Force Unleashed
It was already over, but the Core still had some fight left. Hundreds of slave droids converged on the apprentice, hoping to crush him under their combined weight before he could reach the nearest processor. He blew them away with a single push and slashed open the processor’s casing. Ignoring the hot metal edges, he pushed his left hand into the workings inside.
-- The Force Unleashed
Originally posted by Beniboybling
How is it a "heck of a fight" when Sidious didn't fight back, lmao.
Sidious blasts him. He retaliates with his own lightning and TK. Sidious realizes Galen may be a worthy successor and is willing to sacrifice himself to turn Galen to the Dark Side. Rahm interferes enraging Sidious. Sidious strikes out but Galen steps in and enters into a force lock which Galen breaks off to allow his friends to escape. Very similar to Yoda isn't it with Yoda being blasted by Sidious's lightning before retaliating with TK. An extended fight goes on ( this is where the main difference lies ) before they enter a force lock and Yoda is forced to break it off knowing he can't win. The difference being Galen was forced to break it off to give his lover and the Rebel leaders a chance to escape.
Luke is a superior duelist by a grand margin. ANH Vader is presumably superior to TFU Vader, and ESB Vader is superior to ANH Vader:
And then RotJ Vader says he feels more powerful than he's ever been. That's at least two, if not three, noticeable power-ups Vader gets from TFU, where he's essentially even with Starkiller (replay that fight 100 times and you probably get a roughly even split).
RotJ Luke matches or even exceeds Vader as a duelist. Luke then has six (or is it nine?) years to train and fight. By the time he meets Wankatine, everybody had fawned over his power, and Wankatine himself acknowledges that he's grown strong in the Force and could give him a good fight (but lose, and this is Wankatine before he gets a younger body). Then Luke apprentices himself to Wankatine for a short while, learning of the dark side and growing powerful enough that he thought he could challenge the Emperor. Though he lost, he then spent more time learning under Wankatine, and then broke free from his grasp, and was able to defeat him pretty swiftly in a duel, albeit with some Force harmony from Leia (that Luke didn't even seem to notice was there until Leia pointed it out).
Galen Marek, meanwhile, is roughly a match as a duelist with TFU Vader. ANH Vader has a slight advantage over Ben Kenobi, who he remarks in Death Star has grown weaker since RotS. He's clearly inferior with a blade to, say, Dooku, who would've trashed even RotS Obi Wan far more quickly, and by transitive property Windu, who was still trashed pre-vaapad by Sidious. It therefore suffices to say that Marek would be eviscerated by RotS Sidious in a lightsaber duel, and end-of-DE Luke likely matches or exceeds that version of Palpatine.
There is no parity in lightsaber combat.
In the Force, Starkiller is slightly above TFU Vader. Vader even by the OT is scared of Palpatine's power. Hence why the encyclopedia says that Starkiller was "no match" for Darth Sidious. Galen himself acknowledges that Sidious is toying with him when he was being ragdolled - even if you disagree with this interpretation, it's the one that best reconciles that encounter with the encyclopedia's quote and Starkiller's performance against Vader, so it's superior to your own, which creates all sorts of continuity conflicts. Luke, meanwhile, was a match for a significantly more powerful one.
Your only argument now is to limit the discussion to feats of environmental manipulation, which is absurd - Luke hasn't been in situations of having to redirect star destroyers or whatever, so you can't draw 1 to 1 comparisons of their abilities here. In the ambiguities of this line of thought, you defer to the far clearer and more conclusive powerscaling that tells us Luke > Starkiller (by a lot).
But hey, didn't you say in that other thread that you thought Starkiller's raw power rivaled LotF Luke's? 😬
I don't need a counterargument since you have no definitive evidence.
Yet I do. But you do need a counterargument, you're just in no position to make one.
They exchanged force attacks Sidious electrocuting Galen and then Galen stood again drawing on strong emotions to blast Sidious with TK and lightning before Sidious falls to the floor. Sidious likely does want Galen to give in to the Dark Side so that he can strike him down and have a worthy successor to continue the RoT line.
Yeah, so Sidious lets Galen attack him, laughs it all off, then says to keep using his anger and hatred. Kind of obvious what's going on. Stop appealing to bias and try look at it objectively.
As I said above Galen may not have matched Sidious but he gave him a heck of a fight similar to Yoda.
Yet he will not. This is not hard: Sidious was toying with Marek, he was going all-out against Yoda. His fight with Yoda was at least partially a stalemate, his "fight" with Marek is him laughing around.
Since I've mentioned repeatedly that I believe DE Luke is superior as a lightsaber combatant I won't justify your second inquiry with a response.
"Throwing around" Lol. Buckling it I think you mean, and yes, it is surpassed by Marek with feats like powering an ore cannon that pierced through a Star Destroyer, bringing down the supports of an orbital superstructure, guiding the descent of a falling Star Destroyers, casually blasting hundreds of droids and being a clear superior to Vader in the Force.
Buckling it? No, the guy brings it down like it's nothing. Sidious' lightning >> Galen's, and Luke tanked it just fine:
And Luke guided a falling ship casually while on Dathomir, telekinetically moved the Falcon, and influenced proton bombs thousands of miles away and all of this is a long time before Dark Empire. Plus, being substantially ahead of Vader in power should place him above Marek, who is inferior to prime Vader.
Given their respective feats I'd have to disagree. Luke has improved by an unknown degree from his RotJ incarnation who was a match for RotJ Vader. Galen beats TFU Vader who improved by an unknown margin by RotJ. Luke's best saber feat by DE remains matching Vader in RotJ. I'm willing to say DE Luke would be the superior duelist but it's not by some grand margin given their respective feats by this point in time.
Keep yelling how it's unknown. It will not change the fact that DE Luke >> RotJ Luke ~ RotJ Vader > TFU Vader = Galen. There's no point in arguing in this, we know DE Luke is certainly superior to Galen, we just don't know if slightly or massively. Given how at least four people said Luke's growth in power is massive, yeah I'll say he takes Force handily.
That's your opinion which you're free to have.
Nah. His fight with Galen as of TFU was firmly in the apprentice's favor despite the advantages Vader held.
He matches a Vader who is reluctant to kill him who he himself is reluctant to kill as well, yes.
Indeed. As I said DE Lukes grows in power in comparison to his RotJ incarnation by an unknown margin.
Again you're correct. He loses to DE Sidious in a lightsaber duel when unamped and then when amped by Leia's force harmony was capable of beating him. Since I'm assuming Luke doesn't have Leia at his disposal for this fight we can only look at his greatest feats of lightsaber dueling which is matching RotJ Vader in RotJ and losing to DE Sidious in DE.
Incorrect. Galen Marek is Vader's superior despite Vader's advantages in the fight.
Vader does have an advantage over Ben, yes. Dooku dared not launch an offensive against Obi Wan in RotS. Vader obviously wasn't exercising any force edge over Ben in their fight or possibly was incapable of such. Dooku is superior to Windu as a duelist imo. Considering Mace was outmatched by Sidious due to the former's speed rather then anything pertaining to skill and Galen is hinted to be faster then Vader I'd have to disagree. DE Luke is trashed by Sidious in their duel when unamped so all your speculation doesn't really amount to much.
There is as I've proven above.
I'd say he's above Vader by a good margin considering Vader was unable to escape his grip.
Darth Vader did not want to face his master alone, that's for sure. He did however feel confident that with somebody like Galen or Luke at his side he could defeat Sidious. Unless you like some believe Vader took Galen as an apprentice under Palpatine's orders which wouldn't make much sense given Vader's statements like "Where is your master? I sense someone far more powerful nearby." Or his surprise when the lightsaber is pulled out of his hand by a child.
You don't need to be a match for someone to provide a challenge. And it's kind of more likely that Galen isn't going to be as much of a match after fighting through Imperial forces and defeating Vader thus depleting his force reserves. Luke lost to a Sidious that couldn't use great amounts of his power without his body aging prematurely and withering away.
I like how in both threads you're trying to tell me what my arguments are. Considering all the logical fallacies you just tried to dump on me and the fact that almost all your statements here are based on your own assumptions you haven't limited me to anything.
I did and I still do. 🙂
Originally posted by MythLord
Yet I do. But you do need a counterargument, you're just in no position to make one.Yeah, so Sidious lets Galen attack him, laughs it all off, then says to keep using his anger and hatred. Kind of obvious what's going on. Stop appealing to bias and try look at it objectively.
Yet he will not. This is not hard: Sidious was toying with Marek, he was going all-out against Yoda. His fight with Yoda was at least partially a stalemate, his "fight" with Marek is him laughing around.
Buckling it? No, the guy brings it down like it's nothing. Sidious' lightning >> Galen's, and Luke tanked it just fine:
And Luke guided a falling ship casually while on Dathomir, telekinetically moved the Falcon, and influenced proton bombs thousands of miles away and all of this is a long time before Dark Empire. Plus, being substantially ahead of Vader in power should place him above Marek, who is inferior to prime Vader.
Keep yelling how it's unknown. It will not change the fact that DE Luke >> RotJ Luke ~ RotJ Vader > TFU Vader = Galen. There's no point in arguing in this, we know DE Luke is certainly superior to Galen, we just don't know if slightly or massively. Given how at least four people said Luke's growth in power is massive, yeah I'll say he takes Force handily.
You don't. You have a statement that Galen was ultimately no match which only proves he wasn't Sidious's equal and that's only at the time that he faced him not accounting for such events like Galen having fought through Imperial forces and defeated Vader beforehand.
There's nothing suggesting Sidious let him attack him. Simply Galen overpowering him with strong dark side emotions and Sidious realizing that he could have a potential successor for the RoT line if he could turn him to the Dark Side.
That's your opinion that you're free to have. I hold another one as I've explained. Also Sidious laughs throughout his fight with Yoda as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sObyG9bTf5A
He brings it down by buckling it. In the quotes I provided above Marek does the same. You probably didn't bother to read them though despite your claim that Luke is a superior force user.
A few things here. In the first scan it appears as if Sidious is knocking the lightsaber out of Luke's hand with his lightning but even if he was electrocuting Luke himself I doubt he was using his full power considering he's talking to Luke about using him to turn his sister in the next scan. You don't generally do that with people you just attempted to kill.
Was the ship 1600 meters longs? The Falcon isn't that's for sure. Along with that the quote never says he's affecting the Falcon with TK rather the text insinuates that he's piloting it with the Force. Regardless even if you do hold the former stance the two aren't comparable.
You believe Galen to be inferior to RotJ Vader but you have no evidence except Vader stating to have grown in power. While that's all fine and dandy and puts Vader CLOSER to Galen it doesn't make him on par or comparable.
"DE Luke >> RotJ Luke ~ RotJ Vader > TFU Vader = Galen."
If this was actually the case you might have a point but since Galen is actually superior to TFU Vader and RotJ Luke is not equal to RotJ Vader in anything but lightsabers you're theory falls apart.
We know DE Luke is superior to Galen as a duelist and we don't know by what margin, that's all.
That's your opinion which you're free to have.
Concession accepted.
Nah. His fight with Galen as of TFU was firmly in the apprentice's favor despite the advantages Vader held.
Yes, the advantages of... his opponent knowing how he fights inside and out? What an insane advantage. Also, it wasn't firmly in his favour, lol. Read the fight again:
A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides, hoping to keep him off his guard.
...
The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain.
...
"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.
Imagine that... Vader actually was driving back and choking Marek at several points. Galen, on the other hand, only had a clear advantage when he was angered.
He matches a Vader who is reluctant to kill him who he himself is reluctant to kill as well, yes.
Great. Luke matches an even better Vader, and then surpasses him. Luke > Galen.
Indeed. As I said DE Lukes grows in power in comparison to his RotJ incarnation by an unknown margin.
We know Vader grew considerably:
And we know Luke surpassed him. So... Vader who is equal to Galen grows considerably, then Luke surpasses him... Kinda obvious who wins.
Again you're correct. He loses to DE Sidious in a lightsaber duel when unamped and then when amped by Leia's force harmony was capable of beating him. Since I'm assuming Luke doesn't have Leia at his disposal for this fight we can only look at his greatest feats of lightsaber dueling which is matching RotJ Vader in RotJ and losing to DE Sidious in DE.
Luke was also on a Dark Side Nexus when he lost to Sidious. I'd argue Luke would fair a good deal better if on neutral ground, even if he loses.
Incorrect. Galen Marek is Vader's superior despite Vader's advantages in the fight.
Incorrect. Most of the fight was a stalemate, and Vader had no advantage that Galen also didn't have. Even the text notes this:
The apprentice knew exactly what to expect. They had dueled many times before. He had learned how to fight at the hands of the man in the black suit-the man whose face had been forever hidden from him. He knew the intimacies of his refined version of Djem So, a fighting style that incorporated elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi. He had fended off many wild, slashing attacks that would have overwhelmed even an extraordinary Jedi Knight. He had borne the brunt of many psychological battles.
Yes, he ultimately was a bit caught off guard, but that was due to Vader's strength. He still knew the way Vader fought inside-out.
Vader does have an advantage over Ben, yes. Dooku dared not launch an offensive against Obi Wan in RotS. Vader obviously wasn't exercising any force edge over Ben in their fight or possibly was incapable of such. Dooku is superior to Windu as a duelist imo. Considering Mace was outmatched by Sidious due to the former's speed rather then anything pertaining to skill and Galen is hinted to be faster then Vader I'd have to disagree.
No damn clue what this has to do with anything... But to argue Yoda's equal is not going to be better than Windu skill-wise is downright idiotic.
DE Luke is trashed by Sidious in their duel when unamped so all your speculation doesn't really amount to much.
Well... That fight was on a substantial nexus. Off-nexus, Luke gives him a hell of a fight. And that's not even considering the fact that Sidious grew substantially in power from TFU to DE.
I'd say he's above Vader by a good margin considering Vader was unable to escape his grip.
Galen didn't escape Vader's grip -- he sent out a telekinetic hit to stagger Vader and then he was released. Then there's the fact that Galen was enraged when he gripped Vader, and he only gripped him for a brief moment.
Darth Vader did not want to face his master alone, that's for sure. He did however feel confident that with somebody like Galen or Luke at his side he could defeat Sidious. Unless you like some believe Vader took Galen as an apprentice under Palpatine's orders which wouldn't make much sense given Vader's statements like "Where is your master? I sense someone far more powerful nearby." Or his surprise when the lightsaber is pulled out of his hand by a child.
Did... did you read the novel? Did you play the game? Vader only "needed an apprentice" to do jobs for him and Palpatine. Both Galen and Palpatine noted this:
It's pathetic to back a character you don't even know the backstory of. I am not sure why I humour you, Syndicate.
You don't need to be a match for someone to provide a challenge. And it's kind of more likely that Galen isn't going to be as much of a match after fighting through Imperial forces and defeating Vader thus depleting his force reserves. Luke lost to a Sidious that couldn't use great amounts of his power without his body aging prematurely and withering away.
What an amazing way to lowball... Sidious, at this point, is at the peak of his power and only bested Luke on a substantial Dark Side Nexus. Try and look at context. And Galen can casually re-fill his Force reserves, as can any Force user.
I like how in both threads you're trying to tell me what my arguments are. Considering all the logical fallacies you just tried to dump on me and the fact that almost all your statements here are based on your own assumptions you haven't limited me to anything.
Both threads? I'm only debating you here. And what logical fallacies? You're the one who's blatantly contradicting what has been presented, and using no-limit fallacies. Your argument hinges on ignoring context, or overexaggerating it. Honestly, you're not worth debating. It's clear you're on some sort of brigade of displaying Marek as a demi-god. Very ironic and amusing how far you'll go and how much you fail.