Originally posted by deathslash
😐 How has it gotten worse? He already had solid feats when he was solo, recently hurt thanos with his attacks, and has been having his intelligence and versatility played up.
He looked inferior to America Chavez, nearly got swallowed by a random chitauri leviathan, got beaten up by a random monster and so on.
There is not a single good combat feat for him in Ultimates.
Originally posted by abhilegend
He hurt Thanos under Bendis when Thing nearly caved Thanos' face in.He looked inferior to America Chavez, nearly got swallowed by a random chitauri leviathan, got beaten up by a random monster and so on.
There is not a single good combat feat for him in Ultimates.
Really? That monster is a cosmic entity requiring two teams to handle and requiring Galactus to defeat. Nearly getting swallowed from behind is not a low showing. Never looks inferior to Chavez.
Isn't Destroke whipping up on Superman now?
This is the power-up paradox. Many heroes get power ups that are explicitly referenced and may result in them accomplishing things they previously could not, e.g. fly in space without needing oxygen, move a planet, etc. Sometimes these power ups even allow them to defeat foes they could not before, or beat foes they had previously been able to vanquish, but do so more easily. More rarely, powered-up heroes even beat a few other established heroes they could not beat before.
And yet, over time, powered-up heroes rarely move up or down in the hero hierarchy of power, which is the only relatively consistent thing in comics, for all it's inconsistencies.
So yeah, Superman became more powerful after Byrne. And yet early on, Superman was called the most powerful hero, Wonder Woman second, and they had close fights most of the time. Flash forward twenty years, and the same thing is essentially true.
Iron man may be the poster child for all of this. Think of how many upgrades he's had, and yet he still seems to occupy roughly the same rung in the hero ladder.
It's the rare power up that really moves the needle in the hero hierarchy AND sticks over time.
Originally posted by TheHulkster
Really? That monster is a cosmic entity requiring two teams to handle and requiring Galactus to defeat. Nearly getting swallowed from behind is not a low showing. Never looks inferior to Chavez.Isn't Destroke whipping up on Superman now?
No.
At their best without looking at low showings I'd pick Adam decisively over Byrne era Superman. Adam has without a doubt been able to manipulate energy, and do so with surgical precision. Able to take Pagan (off panel) who previously wrecked a powerful Avengers lineup which included Scarlett Witch, Thor, Wonder Man, etc. He was able to nearly break even with an Avengers team that had Sentry, Wonder Man and Iron Man, etc while trying to sell them on a strategy to take down Anti Man. Beat down King Hyperion after he decided to get serious. I've read all of the Ultimates and can't really see how he's had a low showing against any small threat to date.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
This is the power-up paradox. Many heroes get power ups that are explicitly referenced and may result in them accomplishing things they previously could not, e.g. fly in space without needing oxygen, move a planet, etc. Sometimes these power ups even allow them to defeat foes they could not before, or beat foes they had previously been able to vanquish, but do so more easily. More rarely, powered-up heroes even beat a few other established heroes they could not beat before.And yet, over time, powered-up heroes rarely move up or down in the hero hierarchy of power, which is the only relatively consistent thing in comics, for all it's inconsistencies.
So yeah, Superman became more powerful after Byrne. And yet early on, Superman was called the most powerful hero, Wonder Woman second, and they had close fights most of the time. Flash forward twenty years, and the same thing is essentially true.
Iron man may be the poster child for all of this. Think of how many upgrades he's had, and yet he still seems to occupy roughly the same rung in the hero ladder.
It's the rare power up that really moves the needle in the hero hierarchy AND sticks over time.
Other characters like WW and Captain Marvel also got powers and caught up... At least until post IC where Superman pulled away again. Superman power boosts largely stuck, as anyone who actually reads the comics knows and has known for decades.. As you SHOULD know and gave been corrected multiple times by me over the course of YEARS now. Stop lying.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Your view of how comics actually work is infantile.
Other characters did not need power ups to catch up. Others may have gotten power ups, and stayed in their same rank--just like Superman. Others did not get power ups, and also largely stayed in the same rank.
Give specifics. ONLY Orion among his peers stayed competitive in combat Post IC and he got an explicit upgrade in formidability in the Byrne JK4W into his Simonson portrayal to becoming a Darkseid beater in physical combat via skill and savagery. Even then Supermans prior relative power upgrade up to Darkseid level strength-- Darkseid overpowered Orion with one hand in relative strength--were still being referenced IN that fight. Later, Orions physical body gets annihilated by Source amped Infinity Man who repeatedly failed to KO Superman.
So which characters did not need powerups to stay in the same rank relative to Superman? PLEASE say JOnn, or Captain Marvel.
I would say that the main difference between early and late Post-C Superman was perhaps an increase in how often uber-Superman shows up and hits the 'trans' level. But this has happened since the beginning, with various explanations provided for that over time. And often no explanation.
Orion has usually been presented as an equal (or near equal) to Superman (except on the crazy Superman days). He was in Death of the New Gods and he was under Byrne.
I simply disagree with your idea that Shazam and WW also got power ups that stuck prior to the New 52. Did they suddenly jump ahead of MM and Black Adam? Your idea that everyone is keeping track of these power ups just doesn't ring true to me.
I don't recall Superman necessarily saying he had no chance, but I may not have remembered those fights clearly.
Plus, it doesn't make much sense to imagine there is a complete equivalency between both versions of DOS Doomsday.
Comics aren't realistic and power levels are rarely perfectly consistent.
Originally posted by deathslash
that very same Superman got knocked out by standing next to a gas station when it blew up so.........
After fighting Doomsday who basically defeated the JLA with one hand non the less.
Fighting Doomsay will take it's toll on Superman.
Oh and I forgot, he also took a Maxima punch right in the face.
I don't know many heroes who will be capable of taking that kind of punishment.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
After fighting Doomsday who basically defeated the JLA with one hand non the less.Fighting Doomsay will take it's toll on Superman.
Oh and I forgot, he also took a Maxima punch right in the face.
I don't know many heroes who will be capable of taking that kind of punishment.
He has not taken the bulk of his punishment by that point and much of the fighting up to that point involves Superman fighting alongside the JLA. There is little indication of Superman being physically worn when the explosion happens IMO.
Originally posted by Rao Kal Elalso got kicked through a house and was out of it long enough for Doomsday to knock out booster, walk in the house, crack Ice's ribs, and nearly kill the family. 👆
After fighting Doomsday who basically defeated the JLA with one hand non the less.Fighting Doomsay will take it's toll on Superman.
Oh and I forgot, he also took a Maxima punch right in the face.
I don't know many heroes who will be capable of taking that kind of punishment.