Originally posted by RealityWarperWell, you're using Beyonder's feats from SWII as a means of power-scaling the entire race into even more uber territory than him. But given their lows, I can't really agree with that.
What do you mean exactly ?
For example: the entire Beyonder race was killed by a bomb that 'only' destroyed hundreds of thousands of universes. Conversely, SWII-era Beyonder tanked a blast that could have destroyed "SEVERAL BILLION" entire dimensions:
http://i.imgur.com/UgyE3EW.jpg
See where I'm coming from?
Additionally, the Beyonders who killed LT and the hierarchy are the same Beyonders who were ultimately beaten by the Ex Nihilii and Starbrand... And then Thor+Hype took on dozenS more Beyonders afterward.
Their lows are simply too low for power-scaling to work like you're describing it.
Originally posted by Galan007
Well, you're using Beyonder's feats from SWII as a means of power-scaling the entire race into even more uber territory than him. But given their lows, I can't really agree with that.For example: the entire Beyonder race was killed by a bomb that 'only' destroyed hundreds of thousands of universes. Conversely, SWII-era Beyonder tanked a blast that could have destroyed "SEVERAL BILLION" entire dimensions:
http://i.imgur.com/UgyE3EW.jpg
See where I'm coming from?Additionally, the Beyonders who killed LT and the hierarchy are the same Beyonders who were ultimately beaten by the Ex Nihilii and Starbrand... And then Thor+Hype took on dozenS more Beyonders afterward.
Their lows are simply too low for power-scaling to work like you're describing it.
That's not contradictory.
Each "bomb" was designed to destroy one entire reality including his infinity of realms and dimensions.
The fight that you showed is happening inside the Earth-616 reality and it concerns "only a few billions of dimensions".
If you look it that way that sounds correct.
By the way weren't the Ivory Kings the most powerful of their race ?
Overall I agree that something is wrong without having no further explanations.
How comes that the Beyonders didn't simply thinked Thor & Co out of existence ???
Were they protected by the tree & Starbrand influence from being instantly destroyed ?
Marvel owns us an explanation.
Originally posted by Galan007
Each bomb destroyed a universe, just like each incursion destroyed a universe.That is all.
So you believe that the dimensions and realms in each realities remained unaffected ? That Asgard was safe ?
I don't buy it.
The Handbook of the Marvel Universe precise that the Incursions affected the realities therefore including the infinity of dimensions and realms.
Originally posted by Galan007
Their lows are simply too low for power-scaling to work like you're describing it.
And how would you explain the death of the Living Tribunal, their fight against the Multiversal Avengers, and their death at the hands of Dr. Doom and Molecule Man?
Originally posted by RealityWarperI believe what we were told dozens of times, across dozens of issues: each bomb could destroy a universe... Just like each incursion could destroy a universe(well, technically two universes lol.)
So you believe that the dimensions and realms in each realities remained unaffected ? That Asgard was safe ?I don't buy it.
The Handbook of the Marvel Universe precise that the Incursions affected the realities therefore including the infinity of dimensions and realms.
Anywho, I am certainly not of the opinion that every time the word "universe" was used, Hickman really meant for us to take that as "an infinity of realms and dimensions", like you're implying. If that were Hickman's intent, he would have made us(ie. the readers) explicitly aware of such at some point in the series...But he never did, so I'm not buying it.
Originally posted by AstnerIt is hard to say with any kind of certainty. In one corner they have a very high-high(3 of them beating LT.) In the other corner they have some embarrassingly low-lows. There is no neutral ground from which an 'average' can be formed.
Out of curiosity, where would you rate a single Beyonder in terms of power?And how would you explain the death of the Living Tribunal, their fight against the Multiversal Avengers, and their death at the hands of Dr. Doom and Molecule Man?
However, the best feat we saw an individual Beyonder accomplish was wiping out the Celestial Host, and killing the likes of Eternity. So meh. /shrug
Either way, nothing suggests they are multiversal individually.
Originally posted by Galan007
I believe what we were told dozens of times, across dozens of issues: each bomb could destroy a universe... Just like each incursion could destroy a universe(well, technically two universes lol.)Anywho, I am certainly not of the opinion that every time the word "universe" was used, Hickman really meant for us to take that as "an infinity of realms and dimensions", like you're implying. If that were Hickman's intent, he would have made us(ie. the readers) explicitly aware of such at some point in the series...But he never did, so I'm not buying it.
I'm implying that each bomb was specifically designed to destroy one reality and one reality is implied to contain an infinity of realms and dimensions.
In short Hickman said Universe but was impliying an entire reality.
In short when you destroy the entire Earth-616 reality, the realms and dimensions that it contains are destroyed too.
A Reality is the collection of an Earth-like universe and all other realms associated with that universe. For example, in general, there is one Negative Zone, one Asgard, and one Dark Dimension associated with each Earth universe. The collection of all associated realms is a Reality. Further changes to the history of a realm will alter its reality. In most cases, this actually involves overlapping or merging one reality with another.
Originally posted by RealityWarperExcept this was never stated/implied in the story itself.
I'm implying that each bomb was specifically designed to destroy one reality and one reality is implied to contain an infinity of realms and dimensions.
Hickman's intent was crystal clear, imo: 'a universe' implies exactly that: 'a universe'. Certainly not "an infinity of realms and dimensions within each and every one of those universes."
But even if you choose to view the cosmology that way(Hickman be damned), it changes nothing. The bomb was still universal any way you cut it. 👆
Originally posted by celeyhyga17Thing is: the Beyonders have NO feats to suggest they are multiversal individually, and their lows sharply contradict that assertion as well.
Other "multiversal" characters have embarrassing lows. No one is safe from story driven plot.
The entire race was killed by infinitely less energy than would be required to perform a multiversal feat, for God's sake.
Originally posted by Galan007
Except this was never stated/implied in the story itself.Hickman's intent was crystal clear, imo: 'a universe' implies exactly that: 'a universe'. Certainly not "an infinity of realms and dimensions within each and every one of those universes."
Thing is: the Beyonders have NO feats to suggest they are multiversal individually, and their lows sharply contradict that assertion as well.
The entire race was killed by infinitely less energy than would be required to perform a multiversal feat, for God's sake.
Hickman was implying that everything will be destroyed and that exactly what happened.
Their fight against the Abstracts are enough to say that they are multiversals.
Every Cosmic Cube-being above or on par with The Beyonder is multiversal.
The Abstracts are above the Cosmic Cube-beings.
The Beyonders are above the Abstracts.
All Owen Reece are supposed to have the same abilities and as Owen from the Reality-616 was able to affect the entire multiversal reality then there is no reason to believe otherwise.
Originally posted by Astner
But that doesn't make the Molecule Man anything more than a universe bomb. If these realms cannot survive without their universe, then all you have to do to destroy them is to destroy the universe.
Thinking about it twice I disagree.
You can destroy one Universe without affecting his dimensions and realms.
A Dimension in this sense refers to a realm containing space, time, matter, and energy. A dimension may be a universe (a virtually infinite amount of space) or a "pocket dimension" (a clearly finite and often relatively small realm). In addition, dimensions are further divided into "essentially Earth-like" realms, with similar makeup, physical properties, and laws of physics; alien dimensions, with differing physical properties and laws than Earth dimensions; and magic realms, alien dimensions governed primarily by magic.
A Realm is a location or an area of interest. It is often used interchangeably with "dimension," though it can also refer to physical locations within a dimension, such as a planet, nation, city-state, etc.
A Universe is a single dimension, such as Earth-616 (or, more appropriately, Universe-616), the mainstream Marvel Universe. See below for further discussion in Earth-616 and numbering realities. Uni - "one"
One Universe is a specific dimension therefore you can destroy it without affecting the other dimensions.
