You seriously think depowered Thor could defeat a fully geared up Hawkeye? The same Hawkeye who used that exact same gear to take out countless aliens and robots during the two Avengers films? There is no evidence to suggest being mind-controlled had any kind of adverse effect on his skill level. Hell, he performs arguably two of his best shots (the carrier crippler and the USB shot) while mind-controlled.
If you do believe a depowered Thor, who understood so little of his limitations that he got his ass KO'd by a tazer, can take out a battle-ready Hawkeye, then we are going to have to agree to disagree in this thread. Because I see a depowered Thor going down hard to a Hawkeye armed with his bow and arrows.
Couple things to consider about the Hawkeye fight:
1. Setting of the fight didn't allow Hawkeye to properly utilize his bow. He fired off like what, one shot? Thor in the exact same scenario wouldn't have had trouble disarming Hawkeye either. Had the fight been in open ground, it would have been a lot different.
2. Hawkeye has next to zero h2h feats other than this fight. We have no idea just how good he is.
3. If we're to assume that Hawkeye is as good a h2h fighter as most top SHIELD agents are then that's pretty much how good the SHIELD agents were that Thor demolished.
As for the WS fight, how many times do I have to say this: BW only lasted so long due to surprise. When the surprise wore off, WS had no issue dealing with her. So it's not exactly a good showing of her h2h skill.
Originally posted by FrothByteThere was a couple she teared into the metal/wiring to kill.
Remind me again how she was taking down Chitauri? Was she tearing them apart with her bare hands?
I don't see Thor doing as well in that situation. Even if he had access to the weapons she did.
Black Widow would win this, with only a slight struggle. Thor took out some SHIELD men she would likely tear apart just as easily, and she has more hand to hand feats including people like Winter Soldier and Hawkeye, not to mention aliens and robots.
Originally posted by ScooblessAnd Thor took out featless canon fodder agents. Two can play that game.
Yes, she fought the featless cannon fodder aliens, much like Jar Jar did with the droid army (the fight ended pretty much the same way too)
Originally posted by FrothByte
Couple things to consider about the Hawkeye fight:1. Setting of the fight didn't allow Hawkeye to properly utilize his bow. He fired off like what, one shot? Thor in the exact same scenario wouldn't have had trouble disarming Hawkeye either. Had the fight been in open ground, it would have been a lot different.
2. Hawkeye has next to zero h2h feats other than this fight. We have no idea just how good he is.
3. If we're to assume that Hawkeye is as good a h2h fighter as most top SHIELD agents are then that's pretty much how good the SHIELD agents were that Thor demolished.
1. He got off more than one shot. And one of them he got off at the medium/close range he virtually never misses at when normally fighting opponents. He was fighting in similar relatively cramped conditions during the Avengers 2 fight in Wakanda, and didn't seem to have too much trouble. He even instantly drops a SW who tries to sneak up on him, using an arrow in melee no less. Hell, other than Widow or Loki, who has Hawkeye even missed? And that is debatable. What has Thor done to suggest that he could easily disarm Hawkeye of his bow, without being able to rely on his enhanced stats and other abilities for help? What has depowered Thor done to suggest he is actually fast and nimble enough to avoid getting hit by an arrow?
2. Actually no. We have seen him utilize his bow and arrows in melee during both the Avengers end fights, stabbing and hitting aliens etc. and they were Chitauri who could survive high distance falls, dig into concrete and had advanced laser weaponry, as well as metal Ultron robots that could fly, also easily bust through concrete etc. and had energy weapons. None of which a depowered Thor has. The same full gear he had against Widow. He also uses some of his arrows and a knife in melee against her, just like we have in fact seen him do during other battles. She on the flip-side, fought using just H2H.
3. So no, he HAS actual feats using said gear effectively at the same kind of range he was using it against Widow. Those agents Thor fought have absolutely no feats comparable. So to try to claim that the agents Thor fought were on par with him, just because they were SHIELD agents, does not work.
Hell, what proof do you have that any of those SHIELD agents Thor fought would have lasted more than a minute or two during the New York battle, or the Avengers 2 flying city battle?
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
1. He got off more than one shot. And one of them he got off at the medium/close range he virtually never misses at when normally fighting opponents. He was fighting in similar relatively cramped conditions during the Avengers 2 fight in Wakanda, and didn't seem to have too much trouble. He even instantly drops a SW who tries to sneak up on him, using an arrow in melee no less. Hell, other than Widow or Loki, who has Hawkeye even missed? And that is debatable. What has Thor done to suggest that he could easily disarm Hawkeye of his bow, without being able to rely on his enhanced stats and other abilities for help? What has depowered Thor done to suggest he is actually fast and nimble enough to avoid getting hit by an arrow?
1. It was never shown, mentioned or hinted in the movies that removing Thor's powers made him slower or dulled his reflexes. So as far as we know, his reflex speed remained the same with or without powers. He pretty much fights at the same speed after all.
Which means he maintains the reflexes he did when he blocked laser fire with his hammer. Which means he has the same reflexes as when he fought Loki, Loki who was fast enough to catch an arrow.
Now if you want to claim that removing his powers also downgrades his reflexes, that's on you to prove.
Till then, yes, he has enough feats to show that he can dodge an arrow.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
2. Actually no. We have seen him utilize his bow and arrows in melee during both the Avengers end fights, stabbing and hitting aliens etc. and they were Chitauri who could survive high distance falls, dig into concrete and had advanced laser weaponry, as well as metal Ultron robots that could fly, also easily bust through concrete etc. and had energy weapons. None of which a depowered Thor has. The same full gear he had against Widow. He also uses some of his arrows and a knife in melee against her, just like we have in fact seen him do during other battles. She on the flip-side, fought using just H2H.
2. You listed feats of Hawkeye using his bow and arrow as melee WEAPONS. I was asking for h2h feats. If you're going to include his bow and arrow melee fights as h2h feats then we might as well include Thor's hammer fights as h2h feats as well. So yeah, again, what actual H2H feats does Hawkeye have other than fighting BW?
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
3. So no, he HAS actual feats using said gear effectively at the same kind of range he was using it against Widow. Those agents Thor fought have absolutely no feats comparable. So to try to claim that the agents Thor fought were on par with him, just because they were SHIELD agents, does not work.Hell, what proof do you have that any of those SHIELD agents Thor fought would have lasted more than a minute or two during the New York battle, or the Avengers 2 flying city battle?
3. Coulson mentioned how those SHIELD agents were "some of his best". Now that might not seem like much, until you realize the kind of agents Coulson employs in his team. Agents like Ward, May, Triplette, Bobbie... all top notch fighters. All capable of giving BW a run for her money. Even Skye who had very minimal training turned out to be a very competent fighter. What more full agents who graduated from the academie whom Coulson refers to as "some of his best"?
At the very least, those agents should be a lot more trained than the normal fodder BW takes out, and Thor took them out more easily than BW took out Hammer's goons. In the end, the "fodder" that Thor took out had a lot more credentials on paper than the fodder that Widow took out. I'd also like to mention that BW often employs weapons when she takes out fodder (chitauri, ultron bots, hammer goons, etc).
Also, here's BW's fight against WS. Forward to 0:58
You'll see she did almost nothing. Got the jump on him, tried to strangle him, that was it.
Originally posted by FrothByte
1. It was never shown, mentioned or hinted in the movies that removing Thor's powers made him slower or dulled his reflexes. So as far as we know, his reflex speed remained the same with or without powers. He pretty much fights at the same speed after all.Which means he maintains the reflexes he did when he blocked laser fire with his hammer. Which means he has the same reflexes as when he fought Loki, Loki who was fast enough to catch an arrow.
Now if you want to claim that removing his powers also downgrades his reflexes, that's on you to prove.
Till then, yes, he has enough feats to show that he can dodge an arrow.
So Thor blocking things with his hammer means he can dodge arrows? Dodging something with your body and physically blocking something with an object are two very different things. And the fight with Widow was close range, not long range like the Loki shot. And also, if you want to use Loki as proof that Thor can do that, does that by extension mean that the big SHIELD agent who managed to give Thor a bit of a scuffle also has similar reflexes to Loki, being able to tussle with a depowered Thor? That's a dangerous line of reasoning to go down. With that kind of logic, every person a holding-back Green Arrow (considering we know he normally fights to disable/capture, not to kill) has fought in recent years and taken more than a short scuffle to defeat has arrow dodging/catching reflexes.
And, considering being depowered drastically weakened him in both strength and durability, as well as completely negating his other abilities and control over mjolnir, there is actually a potential argument for his speed/reactions also suffering at least somewhat.
Originally posted by FrothByte
2. You listed feats of Hawkeye using his bow and arrow as melee WEAPONS. I was asking for h2h feats. If you're going to include his bow and arrow melee fights as h2h feats then we might as well include Thor's hammer fights as h2h feats as well. So yeah, again, what actual H2H feats does Hawkeye have other than fighting BW?
Hawkeye uses a combination of H2H and his bow/arrows during those scenes I mentioned. Just like he did against Widow. That is the whole point. Her feat is fighting a mind controlled Hawkeye going all out. I don't need to provide just H2H feats for him because he didn't stick to H2H during their encounter, while she did. The argument I posted was how well an unarmed and depowered Thor could do under the same circumstances. Engaging a fully armed and mind-controlled Hawkeye in melee. The Widow/Hawkeye fight is an H2H feat for Widow, not Hawkeye. So no, it is not the same thing as giving Thor his hammer feats for this.
Originally posted by FrothByte
3. Coulson mentioned how those SHIELD agents were "some of his best". Now that might not seem like much, until you realize the kind of agents Coulson employs in his team. Agents like Ward, May, Triplette, Bobbie... all top notch fighters. All capable of giving BW a run for her money. Even Skye who had very minimal training turned out to be a very competent fighter. What more full agents who graduated from the academie whom Coulson refers to as "some of his best"?At the very least, those agents should be a lot more trained than the normal fodder BW takes out, and Thor took them out more easily than BW took out Hammer's goons. In the end, the "fodder" that Thor took out had a lot more credentials on paper than the fodder that Widow took out. I'd also like to mention that BW often employs weapons when she takes out fodder (chitauri, ultron bots, hammer goons, etc).
They had to be good because they were SHIELD agents? Well, beyond already being regarded as top level SHIELD agents, Hawkeye and Widow are Avengers. Out of all the agents and operates SHIELD had available to them, including their other "best", it was those two who were considered to be so skilled, deadly and capable, that they could hold their own on a team alongside the likes of Captain America, Iron Man, Thor and the Hulk. Part of a team that has to take on alien- and robot armies.
Also, just pointing out that I never brought up her fight against the WS. I know she was outclassed there.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
So Thor blocking things with his hammer means he can dodge arrows? Dodging something with your body and physically blocking something with an object are two very different things. And the fight with Widow was close range, not long range like the Loki shot. And also, if you want to use Loki as proof that Thor can do that, does that by extension mean that the big SHIELD agent who managed to give Thor a bit of a scuffle also has similar reflexes to Loki, being able to tussle with a depowered Thor? That's a dangerous line of reasoning to go down. With that kind of logic, every person a holding-back Green Arrow (considering we know he normally fights to disable/capture, not to kill) has fought in recent years and taken more than a short scuffle to defeat has arrow dodging/catching reflexes.And, considering being depowered drastically weakened him in both strength and durability, as well as completely negating his other abilities and control over mjolnir, there is actually a potential argument for his speed/reactions also suffering at least somewhat.
If you watch the Black Widow vs. Hawkeye fight, you'll see BW was already on the move when Hawkeye shot his arrow. BW didn't exactly dodge the arrow. It's not like she was standing there, Hawkeye shot, and she moved her body away from the arrow. It was BW moving, Hawkeye shooting and missing.
Definitely not as impressive as Thor just standing there and blocking MULTIPLE laser fire.
Thor is a better combatant than Loki, everyone agrees to this. Are you saying Loki somehow has faster reflexes than Thor?
But even if we discount Loki catching an arrow, Thor blocking those blaster bolts was more impressive than Black Widow constantly moving to avoid the ONE arrow that Hawkeye shot her way.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Hawkeye uses a combination of H2H and his bow/arrows during those scenes I mentioned. Just like he did against Widow. That is the whole point. Her feat is fighting a mind controlled Hawkeye going all out. I don't need to provide just H2H feats for him because he didn't stick to H2H during their encounter, while she did. The argument I posted was how well an unarmed and depowered Thor could do under the same circumstances. Engaging a fully armed and mind-controlled Hawkeye in melee. The Widow/Hawkeye fight is an H2H feat for Widow, not Hawkeye. So no, it is not the same thing as giving Thor his hammer feats for this.
Thanks for clarifying. That still doesn't change anything though because
1. Again this was fought at close distance so Hawkeye wasn't able to utilize his bow to it's full potential, meaning BW didn't fight a Clint that was a full potential.
2. Hawkeye still doesn't have any h2h/melee feats against notable fighters, which makes BW beating him in CQC unquantifiable in terms of how good it makes her look
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
They had to be good because they were SHIELD agents? Well, beyond already being regarded as top level SHIELD agents, Hawkeye and Widow are Avengers. Out of all the agents and operates SHIELD had available to them, including their other "best", it was those two who were considered to be so skilled, deadly and capable, that they could hold their own on a team alongside the likes of Captain America, Iron Man, Thor and the Hulk. Part of a team that has to take on alien- and robot armies.Also, just pointing out that I never brought up her fight against the WS. I know she was outclassed there.
No, they had to be good because they were SHIELD agents whom Coulson considered some of his BEST. Consider this: Coulson is high enough in SHIELD rank that he can give orders to BW and Hawkeye. High enough that BW and Hawkeye call him sir. High enough that he can command his own team, get his own jet, even get Fury to break protocol and try to resurrect him with alien technology. A guy who's current team consists of field agents all immensely skilled in h2h combat. A guy who's actually a pretty good fighter himself. Are you telling me that what this guy considers as some of his "best men" are somehow all crappy fighters?
If there's one thing you address in my entire post, please answer this question. Do you doubt Coulson's judgement on what he considers his best agents?