Depowered Thor vs. Black Widow

To sum up my stance, so that we don't get sucked into pages of pointless cycling, I believe that Widow taking out Hawkeye, given his actual feats, is more impressive than Thor taking down SHIELD agents, who have nothing but credentials/reputation going for them. I don't think a depowered Thor could have taken Hawkeye down in that scenario, especially after getting swatted by the Hulk. Where as I don't see Widow having too much trouble duplicating the SHIELD agent gauntlet Thor ran. I think her agility/speed can counter his strength/reach, and that the greater knowledge of different joint locks, submissions and more advanced techniques she displays will net her the win. Make no mistake about it. This won't be easy, but I just see Widow inching it out in the end. If you disagree that's fine. I just don't want this to drag on for pages and pages.

Also, at no point did I say they were crappy fighters. I said they were featless. Also, how often has Hawkeye ever missed? Even moving targets? So the Widow being on the move argument is not the best one. So I don't understand how you are trying to say Hawkeye, who is a SHIELD agent AND Avenger himself, with actual feats, isn't a good measure of Widow, but unknown agents with no feats whatsoever to speak of is a good measure of depowered Thor. And considering, as I pointed out, Thor was reduced significantly in every other way, there is an argument for his speed/reaction being affected. We never see him in the same kinds of scenarios where he has to catch arrows or block lasers, but given the reduction in his other powers, there is room for doubt IMO. But anyway, we clearly disagree on this, so probably very little point in continuing.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
To sum up my stance, so that we don't get sucked into pages of pointless cycling, I believe that Widow taking out Hawkeye, given his actual feats, is more impressive than Thor taking down SHIELD agents, who have nothing but credentials/reputation going for them. I don't think a depowered Thor could have taken Hawkeye down in that scenario, especially after getting swatted by the Hulk. Where as I don't see Widow having too much trouble duplicating the SHIELD agent gauntlet Thor ran. I think her agility/speed can counter his strength/reach, and that the greater knowledge of different joint locks, submissions and more advanced techniques she displays will net her the win. Make no mistake about it. This won't be easy, but I just see Widow inching it out in the end. If you disagree that's fine. I just don't want this to drag on for pages and pages.

Also, at no point did I say they were crappy fighters. I said they were featless. Also, how often has Hawkeye ever missed? Even moving targets? So the Widow being on the move argument is not the best one. So I don't understand how you are trying to say Hawkeye, who is a SHIELD agent AND Avenger himself, with actual feats, isn't a good measure of Widow, but unknown agents with no feats whatsoever to speak of is a good measure of depowered Thor. And considering, as I pointed out, Thor was reduced significantly in every other way, there is an argument for his speed/reaction being affected. We never see him in the same kinds of scenarios where he has to catch arrows or block lasers, but given the reduction in his other powers, there is room for doubt IMO. But anyway, we clearly disagree on this, so probably very little point in continuing.

Fair enough. In reply, let me summarize my stance. BW and Hawkeye are considered top agents but they are never mentioned to be the top fighters of SHIELD. Both of them have zero h2h feats vs. decent opponents. All they ever take out are fodder, and BW usually takes out fodder with the help of weaponry.

Thor steamrolling through SHIELD agents means 1 of 2 things. Either
a. He's so skilled that he makes highly trained fighters look like minimum wage mall cops

or

b. The SHIELD agents are such crappy fighters that Thor one shots almost all of them

To support conclusion A, we have the following proof:

1. Coulson himself mentions that these agents were some of his best. Considering what we know of Coulson, I wouldn't take lightly any agent he considers as one of his best.

2. Every single SHIELD agent we know of, from Barton to Natasha to Ward to May to Triplette to Rumlow to Sharon Carter to even the half trained SKye... all have been excellent fighters

Now to support conclusion B, well, you really don't have anything to prove it. You can call them fodder all you want but bottom line is, everything we know about SHIELD field agents points to them being great h2h fighters... which is more than what we can say for the fodder BW has fought.

Add to that Thor's massive size and strength advantage and that's why I believe he wins over BW.

Coulson said but the s@id are you a merc or something like that he didn't think it was impossible. Be has defeated Hawkeye plus 5 or so hammer security guards she defeated thugs with her hands tied to a chair and at least 1 chitauri she also took a swipe from Hulk I think she wins.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
To sum up my stance, so that we don't get sucked into pages of pointless cycling, I believe that Widow taking out Hawkeye, given his actual feats, is more impressive than Thor taking down SHIELD agents, who have nothing but credentials/reputation going for them. I don't think a depowered Thor could have taken Hawkeye down in that scenario, especially after getting swatted by the Hulk. Where as I don't see Widow having too much trouble duplicating the SHIELD agent gauntlet Thor ran. I think her agility/speed can counter his strength/reach, and that the greater knowledge of different joint locks, submissions and more advanced techniques she displays will net her the win. Make no mistake about it. This won't be easy, but I just see Widow inching it out in the end. If you disagree that's fine. I just don't want this to drag on for pages and pages.

Also, at no point did I say they were crappy fighters. I said they were featless. Also, how often has Hawkeye ever missed? Even moving targets? So the Widow being on the move argument is not the best one. So I don't understand how you are trying to say Hawkeye, who is a SHIELD agent AND Avenger himself, with actual feats, isn't a good measure of Widow, but unknown agents with no feats whatsoever to speak of is a good measure of depowered Thor. And considering, as I pointed out, Thor was reduced significantly in every other way, there is an argument for his speed/reaction being affected. We never see him in the same kinds of scenarios where he has to catch arrows or block lasers, but given the reduction in his other powers, there is room for doubt IMO. But anyway, we clearly disagree on this, so probably very little point in continuing.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Fair enough. In reply, let me summarize my stance. BW and Hawkeye are considered top agents but they are never mentioned to be the top fighters of SHIELD. Both of them have zero h2h feats vs. decent opponents. All they ever take out are fodder, and BW usually takes out fodder with the help of weaponry.

Thor steamrolling through SHIELD agents means 1 of 2 things. Either
a. He's so skilled that he makes highly trained fighters look like minimum wage mall cops

or

b. The SHIELD agents are such crappy fighters that Thor one shots almost all of them

To support conclusion A, we have the following proof:

1. Coulson himself mentions that these agents were some of his best. Considering what we know of Coulson, I wouldn't take lightly any agent he considers as one of his best.

2. Every single SHIELD agent we know of, from Barton to Natasha to Ward to May to Triplette to Rumlow to Sharon Carter to even the half trained SKye... all have been excellent fighters

Now to support conclusion B, well, you really don't have anything to prove it. You can call them fodder all you want but bottom line is, everything we know about SHIELD field agents points to them being great h2h fighters... which is more than what we can say for the fodder BW has fought.

Add to that Thor's massive size and strength advantage and that's why I believe he wins over BW.

Ok, well I have no idea how you can say Widow has "zero" H2H feats against decent opponents, since she did in fact beat Hawkeye using H2H. This is why I don't get your argument. You are acting like Hawkeye, who used the same gear against Widow he has been shown to use effectively against swarms of aliens and robots in two films, both at range and in melee, is less capable than people we have never seen onscreen before, just because they are SHIELD agents. You keep throwing around the word "fodder", which I am not using. And acting like I said they were unskilled, which I never did. And again, those guys might have been Coulson's best, but Natasha and Clint got picked by Fury to be Avengers, which somewhat trumps being a SHIELD agent on your résumé.

I said that I regard Hawkeye, based on actual screen feats, to be a more dangerous opponent than anyone depowered Thor has actually beaten. And you can't actually tell me I am wrong there, considering the people Thor fought have no actual feats to speak of at all.

But anyway, I believe Widow can disable Thor, using her speed/agility, before he can properly get his hands on her. You believe Thor's strength and size advantage gets him the win. So guess that's that.

Technically weren't the agents fodder too? That was depowered Thor only fight feat.

Well, as Froth did correctly point out, while they don't necessarily have feats, by virtue of being SHIELD Agents, they are likely to be a lot more competent than what most people would consider "fodder".

Hawkeye beat featless fodder. BW beat Hawkeye. How then is Hawkeye a good feat for BW? You keep mentioning Hawkeye having gear when he fought BW, but majority of that fight ended up h2h.

Do you have proof Fury picked BW and Hawkeye to be Avengers BECAUSE of their H2H skills? Let me ask you, when you see a marine with multiple awards and considered one of the best soldiers out there, do you automatically assume that he's the best h2h fighter among all marines? .

Besides, Fury didn't recruit Hawkeye into Avengers. Hawkeye got included in the fight when he was controlled by Loki.

Barton seemed like a spy/assassin he was there when Thor tried to get his hammer back in Thor he was there to keep an eye on the tessarct and BW said he was sent to kill her when she got on their radar he is shield operative

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Agreed with this. This post ties up the argument with a nice little bow.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
And all the people she took out at Hammers base? Those were featless canon fodder and not even shield agents..

Originally posted by FrothByte
Hawkeye beat featless fodder. BW beat Hawkeye. How then is Hawkeye a good feat for BW? You keep mentioning Hawkeye having gear when he fought BW, but majority of that fight ended up h2h.

Do you have proof Fury picked BW and Hawkeye to be Avengers BECAUSE of their H2H skills? Let me ask you, when you see a marine with multiple awards and considered one of the best soldiers out there, do you automatically assume that he's the best h2h fighter among all marines? .

Besides, Fury didn't recruit Hawkeye into Avengers. Hawkeye got included in the fight when he was controlled by Loki.

It ended up in melee, but he still tried to use his bow, and even a knife. In a similar way he has been shown to handle both Ultron bots and Chitauri fighters who got up close. And even though you label them as fodder, the Chitauri fighters were an advanced alien race under Thanos, and the Ultron bots were able to dig through concrete, withstand small arms fire, and many could fly and had ranged weaponry as well. And he was fighting a lot of them. But anyway, the point I am making is at least Hawkeye actually has feats. So we have some actual visible onscreen evidence to measure his ability by.

Also, you ask me that Marine question, yet you are basing your entire argument for the SHIELD agents on a single comment from Coulson. I mean are you seriously suggesting that implied ability from a single line of dialogue now trumps having actual onscreen feats? If so, I am going to stop right here.

I believe his main point is that Thor went through Shield agents that were stated to be highly trained faster than BW went through security guards.

I don't claim that the SHIELD agents Thor went through were better fighters than Clint or Natasha. Maybe they were, that wasn't my point. My point is, every SHIELD agent we've seen has been a skilled fighter. If these were some of Coulson's best, then I'm pretty sure they were skilled. Then the ease with which Thor went through them, well, it trumps both Clint's and BW's feats of going through fodder (both of whom normally use weapons when going through fodder by the way way).

And then citing BW beating Clint in CQC as a feat for BW doesn't really do much IMO since the best feats Clint have are just him going through fodder as well.

So this is a battle of who handled fodder better?

I guess Black Widow wins by default since she has 4 movies of fighter fodder while Depowered Thor only has one. Though given how they performed against said fodder I guess Widow has more dynamic feats while Thor's opponent(s) were better equipped. Idk but for now I'd give this to Widow 6/10.

Hammer might not be SHIELD, but they were still considered big enough to take on big government military contracts. So it stands to reason that they aren't just going to hire rent-a-cops for their facility. Happy, who is Tony's main security guy, and has shown that he has at least some level of training (we see him train with Tony in the ring) struggled with one guard in the time it took Widow to take out all the rest. And in actual fact it took Thor just under 2 minutes to clear the SHIELD guys, from the first person he encountered to the final big black guy, while it took Widow just under a minute and a half, even though the Hammer guys seemed to be spread over a larger area.

@ Froth. I am basing my argument of what we know as fact. You just admitted that you do not know what their actual capabilities are. You are speculating what they might be capable of based off of dialogue and what other SHIELD agents are capable of. While acting like actual screen feats don't mean much, even though both Widow and Hawkeye are also considered high level SHIELD agents. You are arguing that Thor beating SHIELD agents is impressive because Coulson said so, but acting like Widow beating a fellow top level SHIELD agent and Avenger, with actual feats, isn't. So guess you are saying that you believe dialogue now trumps feats. In which case, this is pointless to continue, because I strongly disagree with your stance.

1. There was a lot of slowmo when Thor fought the big SHIELD agent
2. Thor had to run around the base
3. BW used some gadgets on Hammer's goons

Not really fair to consider runtime.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. For what it's worth, I'm only giving Thor 7/10 against BW. Not like I think it's an easy match for him.

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this discussion for now and let other people comment.

Yes, and for a big chunk (probably about 20 seconds) of the Widow fight we cut away to a totally different sequence, so we don't even know for sure what the actual timeframe was. The actual screen time is just over a minute, but I took the high end number estimate of the overall screen time, to be fair. And the Hammer guys were spread over a large building Widow had to clear. She literally started at the front door and had to get to one of the most secure areas. And she used some gadgets, but used a lot of pure H2H as well. So both scenarios had different variables and elements, which is one of the reasons I myself never specifically brought it up until someone else did.

But yes, it's best we both actually stop, because we are getting in danger of being sucked into the circular kind of debate I specifically wanted to avoid. And I am also not giving Widow a big majority, but a majority nonetheless. As I said before, I think it would be a hard fight. At least we can both agree on that.

Exactly, a civilian with some training was able to beat one of the security guards.

She beat more faster then he did one. Happy most of trained with Tony. Happy tried to grab Natasha and was taken down.

He is considered Tony's body guard

Happy Hogan- http://marvel-movies.wikia.com/wiki/Harold_Hogan

Lol Happy is a driver, and has zero feats besides getting his ass kicked by a fearless women until that point.