Will Kylo Ren be redeemed

Originally posted by Bentley
Angel does remember the pleasure he felt by inflicting pains to others, and if he truly considered himself acquited from his actions he wouldn't be pursuing redemption. Any quest for salvation assumes there is a big fault, the biggest the fault the deepest the need for expunging one's sin.

Vader's demise was "easy" in comparison.

The saga disagrees since he was redeemed and came back as a force ghost. There wasn't any "appropiate" punishment and death was just a short punishment compared with the continued task of "making amends".

Punishment isn't always justice. If offing Anakin will end up in the galaxy being torn into war, then Anakin is responsible for the potential danger he inflicts to civilization by "giving himself" in. In that case, facing "justice" is blalantly ignoring his responsabilities and is immoral.

The outcome it's ok, I'm not dissing the saga for what happened, I'm pointing out that there were other possibilities that make for engaging storytelling. It's not as if ancient mythology didn't have many stories about Fallen heros that went on living after commiting atrocities.

What Angel remembers is not really relevant- the fact remains that it wasn't him that actually did it, so the moral situation is completely different. In any case this is not a Buffy forum.

I don't think the saga disagrees with me because I outright specified how we can talk about redemption for Anakin in one aspect only, of where he is with the Force. That he died on the Light Side and so gets the ghost treatment in no way at all wipes out his past crimes, which still remain the reason he pretty much had to die to redeem. The new film makers clearly agree, considering the conflicted nature of Anakin's spirit that they were discussing for inclusion. And he did get what he deserved- he died for it, and his legacy will be that of a person remembered for bringing death, fear, hate and evil. Justice is well served- he didn't get away with anything, he faced it and paid the needed price.

Punishment may not always be justice, but in this case I find the idea that a mass genocidal murderer should escape punishment just because he later repented hard to accept, and any situation where Anakin facing justice could bring greater evil is too absurd to consider.

So we remain at the same point. In a story like this, redemption = death and there was no other reasonable dramatic possibility for Anakin at all in the story.

Right. Guess we can wrap this up.

That scene where Anakin and Buffy lightsaber duel on the roof of Sunnydale is my favourite in the film.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I don't think the saga disagrees with me because I outright specified how we can talk about redemption for Anakin in one aspect only, of where he is with the Force. That he died on the Light Side and so gets the ghost treatment [b]in no way at all wipes out his past crimes, which still remain the reason he pretty much had to die to redeem.[/B]

Nothing will erase Anakin's past crimes.

I just brought Angel in to mention there is an actual story to be told about acting upon redemption, which is appealing and deep whether or not it's "about justice" in-universe.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The new film makers clearly agree, considering the conflicted nature of Anakin's spirit that they were discussing for inclusion. And he did get what he deserved- he died for it, and his legacy will be that of a person remembered for bringing death, fear, hate and evil. Justice is well served- he didn't get away with anything, he faced it and paid the needed price.

He "just" died, he got off easy considering his conscience lives on. He was already physically and mentally broken so it was almost a pity kill. Justice is only served here because death is considered a "harsher" punishment than life.

There was this bit of illumination from Vader where he came back to the Light Side of the Force, but he did not have the chance to act on it, so it's like a last minute faith turn. Serviceable from a storytelling perspective, but not the end of all things.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Punishment may not always be justice, but in this case I find the idea that a mass genocidal murderer should escape punishment just because he later repented hard to accept, and any situation where Anakin facing justice could bring greater evil is too absurd to consider.

He could have stopped the First Order from rising by catching them early enough and saved several planets, among other things. The possibilities are in the stories you can tell from there.

Also we have historical figures that were genocidal murderers and went to become enlightened rulers in they later day. I can see how it can be hard to swallow in our current set of values, but that's because they held political power through their lives and we perceive it as an injustice.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
So we remain at the same point. In a story like this, redemption = death and there was no other reasonable dramatic possibility for Anakin at all in the story.

We remain the same: self-imposed storytelling contraints are self-imposed. Possibilities are abound.

I thought we were done... 😉

Sorry, Bentley, but that;s just insanely speculative stuff with no real storytelling logic behind it (and my last comment on Angel- the point remains that if the character we see in Buffy had actually done those crimes, the entire story wuld not work; he'd not be a credible or relatable character on-screen. It only works because he feels guilt for things he didn't actually do, so he can be morally forgiven. Anakin DID do it all).

Anakin could have stopped the First Order? Where the heck is that logic? Why him and not, say Luke- which makes far more sense, and of course did not work out? Just because you can imagine it, that does not make it an idea of any value. I may as well say if Anakin had lived maybe magic space pixies would have come and kept Kylo on the light side. You are making completely arbitrary ideas to try and justify a weak and illogical story position. Like I said- absurd. Likewise absurd is you trying to bring ancient rulers and some sort of statement on modern morality into it. You've kinda lost the plot there.

Sorry, your ideas there are just bad. The only thing self-imposed here is that Vader's redemption and death needed to be handled in a good way.

Keep it simple and sensible. Redemption for great evil = death. Trying to fudge it any other way in a film setup like this will not work. It's more than serviceable- it is dramatically appropriate and, moreover, inevitable. I think dismissing it as 'serviceable' shows a mis-understanding of the genre and the logic of the story.

Because of the time in which these movies came out, because of what they represent and in the light of their philosophy they wanted to wrap up a series and speak to people in a clear and relatable way. Do not open more storytelling posibilities if you're wrapping up everything, in that concept of course death makes the most sense. In my previous posts I've been intending to explain that other storytelling ways exist, which doesn't mean we could've expected such stories back in the day this was written. We are, afterall, in a different time.

That said, if we stray from that contextual perspective I find the morality argument rather hollow. Sure, it would have a very different flavor than the preexisting fiction, but that's why it wouldn't be an integral part of the same tale: in actual human history many different situations come to happen and cannot be read under the same scrutiny, this is also true from mythology. We would actually explore how the Light/Dark side of the force are nuanced into a morally complex situation which could be controversial but appealing. I can give you more examples of iffy morality being allowed into other fictions, with or without the comfyness of a plot device that "allows us to root for the bad guy" -because apparently we need permission? Phuck appealing characters such as the Joker*-, but we have established that you will dismiss them without considérations because the actual possibilities hold no value to you anyways.

However you're ultimately right (you probably saw that coming too 😛 ). After reflecting over the storytelling dilema we have been discussing in circles, I realized that it'd be a plot mistake to allow Vader to fix anything. This is not, of course, because of morality (which is an ok argument given how moral Star Wars is with the Light/Dark sides but I don't take it at face value), but because of the Prequels which clearly established Anakin as the one who "wants to fix everything". It'd be downright stupid if he actually went on solving the issues of the galaxy when that fixing mentality was his undoing to begin with. This certainly shoots down many of the potential actions you could pour into any hypothetical Vader future. At best he could become an hermit or something, but those aren't very exciting nor challenging stories for the genre.

So yeah, this discussion gave me better insight in the character! Thank you for sticking around and proving me wrong.

*- For the record I hate the Joker.

Probably.

💃

He'll be redeemed. He's going to stand up to Snoke and live, maybe even pull a few of his friends out of the Knights of Ren, escape the dark side and make his way to "Zihuatanejo".

honestly I could care less if Kylo is redeemed or not..dude was weaksauce, he got his ass beat by a washed out stormtrooper and a desert wanderer who learned about the Force earlier that afternoon...But for the sake of discussion, no I don't think he will; he's already feeling the "pull" of the light side, it'd be way too cliche and predictable for him to succumb to that.

Well, it is SW after all. A fairy tale with a happy ending. It's not 'let's get uberdark with nothing but brooding characters like in SvB"...

I doubt Kylo will redeem himself. I think it will be a twist and he won't be Vader 2.0.

Mine's nuclear war, but to each his own.

Cute.

Self-doubt, temptation, confusion, resistance, and te possibility for change make for interesting narratives and dynamics.

I have no problem with Kylo going through all of that. My favorite part of Kylo's story so far was the guilt/self-doubt he felt right after his father died. He can have his trials, but that doesn't mean he has to choose the light-side in the end.

No, Anakin was a terribly written character. Kylo is a very average character. Simple direction and straight forward. Was good, went bad, fights doubts, motivation to be revealed next film.

From what has been presented to us so far, Kylo Ren's only motivation is to become as powerful as Darth Vader. So from what we know so far, Kylo Ren betrayed his family, betrayed the Jedi, and helped destroy multiple planets only because he wants to one day become as strong as Vader. I'm sorry, but that's incredibly lazy writing.

They can't blow every wad this early in the new franchise.

Agreed, they don't need to spell everything out right away or even ever, but they need to give us a reason to care about the character. I'm pretty sure the next movies will flesh him out to be a great villain, but the way they presented him in TFA was a disappointment.

He better not redeem himself.

It'd be nice if he didn't. I wanna see a fallen hero go out unrepentant in his darkness.

Yes, we enjoy seeing you around. 😛

He can be redeemed; the first nights are the toughest. No doubt it. They marched him in naked as the day he was born. Skin burning and half blind from the dark side thrown at him. When he came in contact with his father, took off his mask and made his stab to him to see his father fall for death, that's when we knew it was for real. His old life was blown in the blink of an eye. Nothing left but all the time in the world to think about it. He lost the Jedi Council, He lost his family, only the darkness to comfort him. He came to madness that night, any short fuses he had in the past were replaced by the grief of his father's death, left only with the destiny to come to Skywalker and make his way through the tunnel to find the light and gain redemption.

Errrr....

Originally posted by atv2
He can be redeemed; the first nights are the toughest. No doubt it. They marched him in naked as the day he was born. Skin burning and half blind from the dark side thrown at him. When he came in contact with his father, took off his mask and made his stab to him to see his father fall for death, that's when we knew it was for real. His old life was blown in the blink of an eye. Nothing left but all the time in the world to think about it. He lost the Jedi Council, He lost his family, only the darkness to comfort him. He came to madness that night, any short fuses he had in the past were replaced by the grief of his father's death, left only with the destiny to come to Skywalker and make his way through the tunnel to find the light and gain redemption.