Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Novel Vitiate runs the NJO villain gauntlet
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Valkorion doesn't needs to be monstrouly beyond Palpatine to defeat him.
You ignored every reason I gave as to why he sort of has to be - he's so massively outmatched in melee that he must be able to overpower Palpatine's defenses outright before Sidious can close the distance, .ie he needs a Palpatine vs. Vader sized advantage, and he simply doesn't have it.
Usually when two combatants are relatively evenly matched in the Force, neither can overpower the other's barriers outright and they resort to a lightsaber duel. Then it's possible for one to weaken or let their guard down enough to be vulnerable to such attacks. The problem here is that you have neither demonstrated that Vitiate is so powerful as to be able to penetrate his barrier outright beyond maybe a trivial push (that would require Bane vs. Qordis or Sidious vs. Maul disparities in power), nor that he can survive up close long enough for Sidious to tire or to drop his guard. What do you have to say in response to this, beyond just screaming in denial?
Also, Valkorion can repel Lightsaber strikes at point blank range so Palpatine isn't getting through his defenses easily even if he somehow forces a melee duel early on. And even if Valkorion is struck down, he will still be present (in disembodied form) and would take Palpatine by surprise at this point.
He deflects a few strikes from Arcann, who tries to hit him maybe three or four times and spends a quarter the duration saying "does my ambition really surprise you" and angling his lightsaber for no reason. (Read: he was stalling).
This apparently constitutes sufficient proof to you that he can deflect an assault from the guy who cut down three celebrated Jedi masters in eight seconds.
I am not interested in meaningless dick-measuring contest here.
So comparing feats is a "meaningless dick-measuring contest"? 😆 What methodology are we supposed to use then? Accolades? Because you know Palpatine is literally canonically ahead in those, and you always talk about how we should focus on feats instead. That's what I'm doing - going along with your game. DE Palpatine has better everything than Valkorion; better raw destructive ability, better TK, certainly greater speed and dueling ability. Valkorion's potential advantages, his telepathy and more powerful spirit form, won't do him any good here.
A legitimate feats war can be fought between Valkorion and RotS Sidious. You have never demonstrated what advantages he has over the reborn incarnation, and all of your analysis here has been purely defensive.
Even Palpatine's greatest powers cannot affect Valkorion in disembodied form, period.
We don't know about that, since he's apparently mastered "nearly all the known powers", but then the same is true for Wankatine's own spirit. That it isn't as good at affecting the real world is irrelevant.
Dear Lord...
From his fight against Abeloth earlier?
I don't remember him being injured, and even if he were, I see no reason why that would explain Taalon's ability to read his mind and move faster than he could perceive. It's not like Luke was loosing his eyesight or his connection with the Force because his body may or may not have been bruised.
And it proves that he could be killed during the time-span of his transformation.
A random, incoherent strawman. Nobody said he was invincible - he's just vastly more powerful than Vitiate given his ability to ragdoll the son of the Chosen One, compared to Vitiate's getting knocked on his ass by Revan.
Here is something for you:
Had the High Lord been at his best, he would have simply redirected the girl straight into Luke. Weakened as he was by his injury and his ongoing transformation, he barely managed to Force-jump over her - and that left him vulnerable.
Taken from Legacy of the Force: Vortex
I am not sure from where people are getting the idea that Taalon was godlike during his transformation?
Taalon was going crazy in the later stages of his transformation, which is Vestara stabbed him. He was initially powerful enough to ragdoll Luke, who explicitly mused that he had gotten incredibly powerful.
These are baseless assumptions. You keep repeating them like a parrot and without offering solid evidence.
It's pretty obvious that he's faster than Luke, who couldn't even see him move his hand or react to his TK, and you still refuse to provide any speed feats for Valkorion, so it's a reasonable conclusion to say that Luke is faster than him as well. There are no "baseless" assumptions except for yours that you can just deny things by saying "baseless assumptions".
Yes, Lord Nyax is a legitimate threat to Vitiate (as of Revan) but Vitiate's strategy is to use his powers to ensure gap between him and his opponents and destroy them.
Which, in his novel incarnation, amounts to the brilliant strategy of launching a few lightning bolts that Revan knocked back on his ass.
Vitiate, even as of Revan, was so strong that Revan could not affect him with his Telekinetic powers and Revan have some of the best Telekinetic showings in combat situations in the mythos. Check his respect thread for more information.
ROFLAMO. Revan's best TK feat as of the novel is opening a large door. Nyax dominated the same Luke that manipulated dorvin basils and effortlessly destroyed Vader's cloud-reaching fortress.
Now if you can produce feats for Revan and explain how they compare with Luke's (or Nyax's), rather than just throwing them out there and expecting the comparative analysis to work on its own, feel free to do so.
I wouldn't boast that Luke have superior Telekinetic powers then Valkorion because the latter seldom uses them. But whenever he have, he have dominated virtually everybody with them.
No, he hasn't. He knocked back Revan once and then presumably couldn't again because, well, he would've just used his alleged TK to ragdoll him (either that or he's a tactical idiot - it's same result). He therefore had to resort to throwing lightning bolts at him and then getting knocked on his ass.
Originally posted by MythLord
- he ragdolled the Outlander, as a ghost.
Luke ragdolled a Sith Lord more powerful than Darth Vader. More specifically, he pins him to a chair without even gesturing. LOL if you think Vitiate's feat is comparable.
- he collapsed a massive temple, while on his deathbed and before growing substantially in power
Luke effortlessly crushes Vader's fortress, which reaches past the clouds, pretty long before his prime. Cloud-scraping fortress > temple.
The following are not even telekinesis feats, so I'll just liberally throw Wankatine into the mix if you're going to go off topic:
- he has the power to reduce an entire damn planet to a small, grey shell devoid of all life ala Nihilus-style
We don't know if he used a ritual, but it's still less impressive than Wankatine's Force storms, which can destroy Eclipse class super star destroyers; the power needed to do that is enough to turn a planetary surface to molten lava (given Saxton's calculations).
- he's summoned Force Storms, while a spirit, to destroy a fleet
See above. Wankatine can summon more powerful Force storms that destroy far larger and more advanced warships, and he can do it with a mere thought. Oh, and these storms can pinpoint teleport people light-years unharmed.
- he's formed barriers that guarded against lightsaber strikes
Lol, Satele Shan can essentially do that. Pre-prime Luke can absorb AT-AT blasts.
- he has the raw power of 8000 Sith Lords
UnuThul has the raw power of an entire colony. But it's also clearly not the case that Vitiate's power is literally the addition of 8000 sith lords; he would pretty much be unbeatable in any capacity if it were. The ritual did make him stronger, but most of the lords' energy likely went into making him chronologically immortal.
Do I need to go on? Physical stats are, more often than not, influenced directly by one's power and mastery in the force. Valkorion being the insanely powerful being that he is should logically be amplifying his strength, speed, etc. to the point where he won't be downright blitzed by Luke.
Even if we accepted your weird backtracking from "it's cancer to think Luke has better speed feats" to "well I actually can't name a single speed feat of Vitiate so I'll just power-scale!" and conclude that the two combatants are just as fast, how is Valkorion supposed to avoid a melee confrontation? He can't backtrack and attack as quickly as Luke can run forward, so is he just going to be on the run the whole time?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats my point. I'm using that phrasing to imply that it requires 10,000 Jedi to kill Exar Kun despite that being obvious horseshit, just like NG was implying that it required all those Jedi to imprison Sheev.
This is true, we don't know how many were actually necessary, but the more important implication is that without them he would return ad infinitum.