Originally posted by ILS
It's hard to be exact, but even relative to the higher ups of the movie era, Bane is very powerful. He's a total Gary Stu.
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Karpyshan honestly did write him as a total Stu. He even only loses because Zannah essentially cheats. Drew made Bane look like her superior in every way and he spent so much time fleshing out how awesome Bane is without giving her much of anything awesome.
Originally posted by Rebel95
Where?
Zannah wasn't more powerful than Bane yet she managed to succeed him, how do you know this isn't the case with any of the other masters/apprentices?
Originally posted by Rebel95
My bad I meant the sith/jedi during Bane's era. I find it hard to believe that all the jedi/sith of his time were weak compared to those of the PT era
Logically, they should be. But since Karpyshyn has no idea what moderation and overkill are, it's not as definitive as people would like it to be. It takes more effort than it should to push PT development over the DBT Jedi/Sith.
So all Bane trolling aside, if we want to judge Bane's power we have a few data points to work with.
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[*]He's supposed to be one of the weaker members of the Banite sith. The entire purpose of the Rule of Two is for the Sith to grow stronger with each generation - and yes, some of this progress may be encoded in non-martial areas, but it's clear from the descriptions of Darth Sidious being the "culmination" of the Rule of 2 in conjunction with lionizing his power, and Bane's own interest in the apprentice facing down the master in a one vs. one, that personal power is also supposed to trend upwards. It probably isn't a perfect trend, but over 1000 years that's probably where it goes. So, Bane is likely far, far weaker than Palpatine (it would be pretty unimpressive for the power creep in 1000 years to be minimal). Whether this puts him below Dooku, Vader or Maul depends on whether you think they count as "true" inheritors of the Rule.
[*]He knocks down the foundations of a pretty huge temple. Granted, he charges his attack and had a nexus to work with, but for the latter we do know that Bane is faster in RoT than he ever had been, and faster in DoE than he is in RoT. If his strength in the Force scales the same way, he's likely surpassed his nexus-amped self. This is a little difficult of a feat to judge though, partially because he charged his wave and partially because I get a feeling that he had an aldrenaline fueled rage moment, given that he fails to replicate this any other time in the trilogy.
[*]He struggles pretty mightily against random shadow assassins who can resist his TK (and yet were stated in PoD to be no match for Jedi), mercenaries, etc. Granted, even Luke has notoriously had bad showings, but for Bane, these seem to be the norm, with a few peaks every once in a while.
[*]His growth curve is very impressive, going from having no experience with the Force (beyond using it subconsciously as a soldier and inadvertently killing his father) to defeating the blademaster in the course of a few months.
[*]He is apparently beyond Annedu to the point where he can dominate his holocron (which according to Legacy has his spirit stored away in it).
[*]Even with orbalisks and a nexus, he struggles against Ratska Lsu.
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Taken in together, I'd say that he has to be substantially below Plagueis or Tenebrous for the Rule of Two to make any sense. I'd wager a guess and say that he's below Vader as well, as Vader isn't astronomically below the Emperor. His temple busting feat probably puts him above, say, Ventress as a Force wielder, but I don't think he consistently demonstrates the feats to place him on par with RotS Anakin. As a duelist, his prodigious growth might put him above Obi Wan in his prime, but again, still likely below Anakin. The PT Jedi are far, far beyond the Brotherhood, so him struggling against Ratska makes me wary of this.
So in the Force, he would probably lose to mid-CW Anakin.
As a duelist, he'd probably split with CW Maul.
All-out I'd place him in between Anakin and Obi Wan.
Some of this is kind of arbitrary.
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jk Bane sucks.
Originally posted by Rebel95The Brotherhood of Darkness definitely seem like one of the weakest eras of the Sith. Their philosophy contradicted itself and didn't promote growth or the pursuit of power, and they threw out any and all teachings the ancient Sith had that would have helped them a shit ton.
My bad I meant the sith/jedi during Bane's era. I find it hard to believe that all the jedi/sith of his time were weak compared to those of the PT era
The average brotherhood Lord is still a Jedi Master level opponent. The nonames of the brotherhood shouldn't be treated as somehow lower than the nonames of any other order. Though admittedly the Brotherhood does lack the number of powerhouses that other Sith Orders have, which is kinda the point of the equalist failings of the brotherhood.
Sith Lords in the brotherhood are Jedi Master level opponents, not Padawan level scrubs.
Well yeah that's what I was saying. The Brotherhood definitely lacks stand out main powerhouses, but the quality of your average run of the mill master shouldn't be assumed lower than that of any other era. That actually does make sense with the philosophical failings. They teach the techniques and shit well enough to develop an average consistently powerful Sith, but the equality thing is a constrictive chain that keeps few from rising above that norm.
Originally posted by EmperordmbI'd disagree. The simple fact is these other eras of Sith I'm talking about are extremely competitive. They promote competition, rivalry and backstabbing. Kaan's brotherhood doesn't.
Well yeah that's what I was saying. The Brotherhood definitely lacks stand out main powerhouses, but the quality of your average run of the mill master shouldn't be assumed lower than that of any other era. That actually does make sense with the philosophical failings. They teach the techniques and shit well enough to develop an average consistently powerful Sith, but the equality thing is a constrictive chain that keeps few from rising above that norm.
Who is going to be more powerful, one of Kaan's backwards Sith with little ambition other than to serve the Brotherhood as an equal to every other Sith Lord, or one of Darth Krayt's Sith who are constantly vying for a place underneath him as an enforcer or hand? Constantly deceiving and backstabbing each other for a chance to gain promotion?
Also, it just occurred to me that this could be another way to wank the DotJ era. Wewt.
The most important factor seems to be Force potential, and it's tough to figure out how that would vary between eras. It's probably partially a matter of recruitment and retention, and partially just a matter of the Force acting randomly. We know that the dark side has grown in strength from Bane to Sidious, for example. And maybe Bane is literally right in saying that the dark side grows weaker as it is spread too thin.
Force potential is definitely important. What I also see is that every great Force user became great because they were forced to push their limits. Which is why it makes sense for Jedi and Sith during periods of war to see rapid growth; they're being tested.
It's actually said in Path of Destruction pretty explicitly. Sirak was a great duelist, better than everyone else at the academy by a long shot, but he lacked valuable experience. He didn't ever fight difficult opponents, he mopped the floor with everyone. The reason Bane became so much better than Sirak is because he sparred with the best. And because he's a Gary Stu, but yeah.
So with Kaan's Sith not only formally forbidding, but philosophically looking down upon competition and rivalry between Sith, they don't have the means to push themselves as far as Sith who are at each other's throats constantly.
Kaan's academies promote enough rivalry in the training of the Sith as well, and these Sith are pitted in war against Force wielding opponents. I highly doubt they don't have enough obstacles to overcome to actually work.
In any case, I actually made a little respect thread addressing this. I'm not arguing the BoD has an abundance of powerhouses, merely that the average noname of the brotherhood shouldn't be assumed to be any weaker than the nonames of any other era.
Fact of the matter is is that the Sith Masters can match Jedi Masters in combat and are more powerful than an entire division of soldiers while Marauders (the weakest developed Sith in the order) are capable of stomping Jedi Padawans.
The average brotherhood Lord is still a Jedi Master level opponent.
Sith Lords in the brotherhood are Jedi Master level opponents, not Padawan level scrubs.
Uh, no, the Lords in the brotherhood were weaker than their half-trained apprentices on Korriban. They were being beaten by an Army of Light that pretty much gave force sensitive street rats lightsabers and called them Jedi. The standards of that era on both sides were absolutely abysmal.