Revan 3.0 vs. Exar Kun

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's not quintillions of battledroids on every battlefield. 😬 In The Clone Wars TV show, there's like a couple hundred fighting the Jedi at most per world.

You're still going to need to do more work if you seriously want to scale Revan against Jedi from their army busting, and then somehow compare that to Exar or something.

He's not really. After fighting Bastila Shan, he walked into an open room with the Star Forge's "infinite army" of battle droids being created and attacking him. Also, Satele Shan fighting four Sith and a droid is not the same as Revan fighting hundreds of them, obviously. The Star Forge structure, based on how its formatted in the game, allow them to attack Revan en masse from different angles (the front, the back, and sometimes the sides). On Korriban, the structure of the academy allows them, in many areas, to attack Revan from all four sides. The Dark Jedi of this era are also powerful enough to wield Force Lightning, sometimes Force Drain, and are stated to be "experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat," "highly skilled duelists", and "masters on the battlefield." It's vastly more impressive than what Satele Shan did and anything Exar Kun has shown us on the battlefield.

Who do you think would win in a fight; Exar Kun, or five (six?) of these dark jedi?

If you think the winner is Exar, you've conceded that this is purely a stamina feat, seeing as how five-six is the reasonable number of them who could be attacking Revan at once, if even that, seeing as how combatants can rarely coordinate their attacks effectively (Obi Wan and Anakin seem to underpeform vs. just Anakin, in the vision Yoda and Anakin don't dominate Sidious, Qui Gon and Obi Wan don't dominate Maul vs. Qui Gon just fighting Maul alone, etc.) even when they're well acquainted.

You don't think Revan fighting armies and Bastila Shan wouldn't have had negative impacts on him? What?

I'm saying that your bragging about his stamina actually mitigates how much of an effect it would have on him, and ergo how impressive his feat of beating Malak is.

Also, that being said, endurance, like speed and strength, are directly augmented by one's command of the Force. Based on his endurance, which you consider unyielding, Revan should also have the speed and strength advantage over Exar Kun in a lightsaber duel as well, but that was obvious.

That's a pretty weak predictor, lol, compared to the better correlation we can establish by just looking at how well they do against combatants like the strike team and Luke. Endurance can be influenced by lots of things beyond Force mastery.

Or put her in the middle. Or put her "the same extent that Obi-Wan is below Dooku" above Dooku.

You're just throwing out numbers.

It's your quote, lol. I'm saying that it could mean anything and so it means nothing. I accept your concession?

Just take the quote for what it means: Bastila Shan is very powerful and comparable to beings that Exar Kun isn't capable of one-shotting.

Seeing as how Dooku can come close to one-shotting Obi Wan, Dooku and Obi Wan aren't comparable, and yet they're listed together, so being listed together evidently doesn't imply being comparable.

When? 😬

Isn't his rage felt across the galaxy or something? ESB Luke's power is too.

If Malak's abilities are even remotely as successful and masterful as Revan's military strategies, as the quote says, that's extremely impressive praise in regard to his abilities and makes clear he's not "trash," like you stated. He's extremely powerful and skilled with a treasure of Sith abilities at his dispoal. Revan defeating him, primarily due to just his lightsaber, on the Star Forge, is better than anything Exar Kun can bring to the table for combat.

Trash is a relative term. Pretty much every named character is like in the top 1% of all trained Force users. Many are in the top 0.1%. Even Sirak was pretty powerful. But ragdolling Bastila doesn't make Malak anything to the point where you can seriously use Revan's beating him as a relevant data point. I mean, I can lay the same accolades on Vodo, and Exar beats him pretty easily.

He was the Jedi Order's greatest champion between the time of Exar Kun's death and Revan's rise to power. He led the charge during the Great Hunt and killed many terentatek. Anyway, no, it's different. Cay Qel-Droma had a vision of Darth Malak, his power, and what he would do. Luke Skywalker didn't know next-to-anything about Marka Ragnos besides from what is written about him in history books and legends, to my knowledge. One's more legitimate.

Lol, obviously his vision would give him details about his TK and dueling feats, rather than more chronological accounts of what he'd do to influence galactic history.

Regardless, I'm sure Droma would have regarded Vodo and JA Luke as incredibly powerful people. You're not explaining how these feats place Revan relative to Kun, you're just trying to vaguely establish that Revan is powerful.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's especially egregious if you actually look at what Lucas said. It's laughable to suggest he was talking about lightsaber skill, the ability of duelists or that his statement is exclusive to the PT given what he actually, literally says. All he mentions is them fighting in large groups. Hardly unique to the PT.

Yeah, golden age is a weird term, but considering the quote regarding Maul vs Qui Gon and Obi Wan, it's pretty clear he wasn't talking about large groups. He never says anything about large groups that I remember.

People underestimate the level of skill, speed and precision required in blocking basters from hordes of droids on a daily. So I question how skill is being defined by most, being that saber ability heavily relies on precognition, enhanced speed (reaction and striking), and force enhanced strength. Blocking and redirecting blasters with a saber would only increase one's ability with force augmentations, and that's more good than bad when dueling; in combat, it separates a force user from a non force sensitive. I mean...there are other factors as well, such as foot work, but all that can be honed with hours of sparring matches.

Also, I don't think it's just a coincidence that most of the best force users of the PT are referred to as "greatest of all time" and/or "in history." And using reverse logic on your ass, it would dictate that being one of the best swordsman would mean one of the best force users as well, since you attribute every ability that is needed to be a great duelist to how powerful one is with the force (example: Vitiate and Nihilus are fast enough to compete with the Emperor). You must agree that the reverse is true, right? Just curious.

Currently finding Revan's supposed battle precognition advantage humorous at best:

As the battle against the Jedi escalated, Kun altered his normal lightsaber into a more deadly and dangerous weapon. Kun added a second emitter matrix on the opposite end of the handgrip, allowing him to release two blue-white blades simultaneously. The dark Jedi wielded the saber much as he would a quarterstaff, using one blade to block incoming attacks, then quickly spinning the handgrip to use the second blade to strike a killing blow against his opponent.

Customized controls allowed him to adjust each blade's length from half a meter to one and a half meters. Panels controlled each blade's intensity: at its highest setting, a blade was like any other lightsaber, with the ability to cut through dense materials such as armor plating and durasteel with virtually no resistance. At the lowest power setting, a blade became a simple shaft of light, delivering no damage and providing no resistance against incoming lightsaber attacks. By abruptly shortening a blade or dropping it to the lowest power setting, Kun tricked his opponents into overextending themselves during attacks, giving him an opportunity for a dealy counterstrike. By coupling these tactics with his Force abilities to predict the actions of his opponents, Kun became virtually unstoppable in combat.

- The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology

LMAO Ant is getting wrecked

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I didn't think this had to actually be explained, but sure, I'll do it.

Everyone you will debate on these boards already have a pretty locked down opinion on how Star Wars goes and who beats who. You're not going to change Nephthys' opinion that the Hero of Tython isn't better than Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're not going to make FreshestSlice believe that Darth Vader is weaker than Darth Bane. No matter what argument you can bring forward, it won't work. And the reason isn't that they are simply ignorant and won't change their views. It's that the arguments you are bringing forward has already been brought to them before, dozens and dozens of times. We've all seen the quotes that puts Palpatine as the most powerful Sith Lord in history. We've all seen the statements declaring Skywalker as potentially the greatest Jedi of all time. We've seen it across countless debates and we've all formed a 101 reasons why it means nothing and its supporters have made 101 reasons why it should be perceived as law. You aren't bringing anything new to the table, just following in the footsteps of all those who came before you. Your arguments aren't special. They aren't unique. They've been used many times and honestly, in most instances, with far greater logic than what you're doing. It's the reason why as you go across the forums preaching why Luke Skywalker is so great, no one is really caring. We've all seen it before. We've all heard the praise and also the reasons why he stinks. It's the reason why this forum is dying: every debate that could have happened has already happened. You're late to the party and trying to argue stuff that everyone already has battled over for months and years. No one really cares anymore. Unless you actually bring something new to the table, no one's going to listen. And when you bring something old and then act as if you are the discoverer of this grand new idea, expect for members to laugh at you for it, like we all are here.

Revan wins. 👆

^ Ant, this is probably the most ironic, most hilarious blunder in SW vs. debating history. It's actually making me laugh uncontrollably.

Your career is over, lawl.

Was there a series of deleted posts between Kulvax's quote and "Your career is over, lawl," or am I missing something?

You're missing something. 😛

I've never debated against Kun's spirit feats (everyone argues using the physical feats), hence why I'm doing it now. 👆

Otherwise, I'd just link you to my old Revan v. Exar Kun analysis' and call it a day.

Edit: Feel free to clarify how Kulvax wrecked me by quoting a source I basically referred to in my post already, though.

I never understood what Kun being "virtually unstoppable" was supposed to prove. I mean, it doesn't say anything absolute in the slightest. It would mean something if that whole "virtually" part wasn't there.

It would also been unreasonable to assume it applies to all eras. There are a lot of people who would stop Kun dead in his tracks. 😬

Malak was also said to be "virtually unstoppable" iirc.

From my i'm back topic :
Anyway mooving on, so I'm back, even if I have found some better commuitties on reddits that accept me etc... That post some quality post that derseve my attention, so I answer them with quality post. But The posting rate was quite Humhum low...
So I've come back to share some of my new theory and some of their theories (even if I do not approove them.)
First :
https://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheorie...evans_failsafe/
Second is one of mine...
I have come to KotOR I and listen all dialogue possible with Malak.
There is an ifinite possibilities of dialogues or at least almost, but I have found 4 categories of Dialogues, it depend upon you.
First if you go light light side and act like a super noblebright idiot that would make Kreia Kill herself at sight of such a monstruosity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-7AgGetayM
You can go sceptique light side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g76ncgsZOko
You can go reasonnable dark side.
And you also can go full darkside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guiIIMnny8U

I have found that Sometime Malak say the quasy exact same line, but there is some word twist depending of you alignement in the force and you action.

I have come to the conclusion that Malak is aware of Revan being better tha he was..... Even if he during the entire game, claim to have suprass Revan.
He is also aware of this version of Revan being ridiculously weak...But since the dude have an hudge inferiority complexe he just cannot admit it. He just say : "You have more of your old self than I ever immagined" It mean that he kinda feared the dude that the just reap off his jaw for the lulz and for him to lick his boot while crying in despair with his now phantom tongue. It also mean that he considred that version of Revan like another dude, a clown. And when you go full noble bright maru sue, he is laughing. The following line is here because he do not want to admit to be weaker than the dude that drove him into the abyss of teh dark side just to be a powerless side kick that is here to take the blame of all what Revan did wrong. So he find an excuse...
But his behavior indicate that he kinda respect the old Revan despite his hate fpor him.. And that he is a wolf launched in the arena to play with the lion, a bit like Kylo Ren. And he just wanted to be like him, to do all the epic stuff, even when he was a Jedi he wanted to be like Revan, but it was just not possible, and he get really frustrated by this, and he just get mad... His hatred for Revan his infeiority complexe it come here.
Even whene Revan is gone he still have this inferiority complexe, like if himself realise he could never be as great as Revan was... So he go "hahha I suprassed you Revan hahaha ! (Silence) SOB"

In KotOR II HK-47 point that malak unecessary casulties (like bombing the entire city of Taris fir instance) are cause because he want to look like a bad ass and have a serious dick complex.

For Revan as Zez-Kail Ell and light side female Revan carth onasi say in KotOR II Revan never knew redemption he die the moment the Jedi council touched his spirit.

You're gonna have fun with Revanchiste Skybreaker, lol

(Was typing and then accidentally hit send).

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I sort of rushed my response because I was tired of you bitching that I have yet to post it, so here it is.

Anyway, your argument is pretty horrendous. It completely rests on the theory that Exar Kun in the flesh is more powerful than his spirit and Kyp Durron combined, in which the text doesn't suggest that in the slightest. In fact, I doubt that Exar Kun's physical body is even significantly more powerful than the spirit that confronted Luke Skywalker. The only difference between the two, that I can tell, is that spirit Exar Kun must always hold back a small portion of his power away in order to "fuel his disembodied will." And because of such, powers that involve unleashing most or all of one's Force energy, such as Sith rituals, would therefore be restricted away from spirit Exar Kun's use, because then no power would be left to sustain his will. However, in battles, Exar Kun typically only employs standard Sith sorcery and telekinesis, in which rarely do Force-users ever unleash a great majority of their power in single attack regardless. Even when Revan was completely dominating the strike team, it was clear that he had a wealth of power that he wasn't using, for the battle continued when all of them were freed and, once he was defeated, he was able to quickly summon enough power to fight again.

Naga Sadow and Exar Kun specifically created Sith temples as focal points of power for their personal use.

"Great power is locked in these temples."
--Freedon Nadd (Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith)

"Tremendous energies are concentrated in these half-ruined temples."
--Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi- Dark Lords of the Sith 4

"The Massassi built huge temples of ancient Sith design to focus great dark side energies."
--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"When the Dark Jedi Exar Kun arrived to Yavin 4, he enslaved the Massassi and forced them to construct new temples as focal points for Sith power."
--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"Centuries later, a young Sith initiate named Exar Kun enslaved the Massassi, and forced them to construct temples as focal points of Sith power."
--The Official Star Wars Databanks

"These strange locales emanated the dark side of the Force, and were considered focal points of power for dark side users."
--Star Wars The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

And, now, let's reference back to his actual fight with Luke Skywalker.

"Luke dropped his useless lightsaber and crouched. His every muscle suddenly coiled and tensed. He rallied all the powers of the Force around him, seeking any defensive tactic. With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from the gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusionary vipers that struck at him from all sides. Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadows of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke’s body."

--Star Wars: Jedi Academy Trilogy: Dark Apprentice

As stated by the quote, the two were specifically calling upon the power of the nexus in order to overcome Luke Skywalker, who would then obviously be weakened by the powers of the world. As per your own argument that Revan's feat on Malachor V is irrelevant due to the presence of the nexus, since Exar Kun, as well, does not have a respiratory of foreign power to bolster his energies, the feat isn't translatable onto neutral grounds. In the early chapters of the Jedi Academy series, Exar Kun could only use the temple's energies to sustain his own will. But due to the fact he drained Gantoris, he had a new "reserve of energy," meaning he no longer had to rely off of the power of the temple to survive. This is especially the case after growing "very powerful off of Kyp's hate." And so when the time came to confront Skywalker, he should have been able to access the concentrated powers to attack, not simply preserve.

So, while Exar Kun may have been weakened, he was still very powerful by the time he fought Luke Skywalker. With his powers further amplified by the temple nexus, which he should now be able to directly draw upon for extra power and not simply to sustain himself at a base level, he's undeniably approaching his former power. This is especially true because he was able to lash out against Luke Skywalker's physical body, which could only be possible if he would soon be able to become fully flesh again (reference to Vitiate's return on Yavin IV as another example of this). Because of such, your argument that Exar Kun's physical body is superior to both his spirit and Kyp Durron is laughable when he's hardly even greater than the former, let alone the latter, which I'll get into in a bit. It's also worth mentioning that Exar Kun's spirit wields powers that his flesh cannot as well, such as dark spiritual travel, so the point that an inability to use all of one's powers corresponds with a significant decrease in power is further muted.

However, none of this is actually relevant. I merely wrote the above to cover all my fronts. Luke Skywalker's defeat should not be looked at as an indication of Exar Kun's power, but rather that of Kyp Durron. As provided by the ten quotes below, Kyp Durron's powers alone were great enough to directly challenge Skywalker (TEC). Exar Kun then further bolstered Kyp Durron's powers by presumably unlocking hidden reserves within Kyp Durron by expending his own power, as previously shown when Kyp Durron rose the Sun Crusher. This interpretation of events is supported by the fact that a host of different sources directly attribute Kyp Durron's own powers to Luke Skywalker's defeat (JVS, TCSWE, TDSS, TERC, and TNEGTC), not Exar Kun's. Furthermore, the Dark Side Sourcebook even confirms that Exar Kun was augmenting Kyp Durron's power. And then, with the extraordinarily powerful Kyp Durron, Exar Kun also joined the fight on his own terms, striking at Luke Skywalker himself. Exar Kun used all his the powers he possibly could to further tip the tide and then defeat Luke Skywalker. The combined might of the two overwhelmed Skywalker and left him for dead.

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"He reached out with his mind, following the paths of the Force that led to every object in the universe, drawing power from the cosmic focal point of the Massassi temple. He searched, sending his thoughts like a probe deep into the storm systems of the gas giant. Behind him, Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt."

--Star Wars: Jedi Academy Trilogy: Dark Apprentice

"Kyp confronted Skywalker on Yavin 4 and used his dark side energies to knock Luke into a coma."

--Star Wars: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

"With the help of Kun, Durron attacked his teacher and used Force lightning to separate Skywalker's spirit from his body."

--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Volume II

"In acquiring the Sun Crusher, Kyp returned to Yavin 4, where he faced Skywalker in a duel that left the Jedi Master comatose, his spirit forced out of his body."

--The Dark Side Sourcebook

"Luke Skywalker confronted him there in a titanic duel of Jedi powers. But the spirit of Exar Kun finally revealed himself in order to assist Durron, using all the powers of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Even a Jedi Master could not withstand such an onslaught, and the two of them overwhelmed Skywalker, leaving him for dead."

--Star Wars: The Essential Chronology

"Doing Kun’s bidding, Kyp attacks and incapacitates Luke, then steals the Sun Crusher vessel, resurrecting it from the heart of Yavin."

--Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion

"When Skywalker tried to stop him, Durron slammed him with energies so powerful that Skywalker slipped into a near-death limbo."

--Star Wars: The New Essential Guide to Characters

"His abilities were unnaturally augmented by Exar Kun."

--Star Wars: Jedi Academy Sourcebook

"He also bolsters Kyp's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma."

--Star Wars: Jedi Academy Sourcebook

So, what we got here is Kyp Durron, with his potential being unlocked by Exar Kun, battling it out with Luke Skywalker with his own power. And then with the further intervention with Exar Kun, who is close to his full power that he had in the flesh, now also fighting independently, the tide is tipped in favor of the Sith and Skywalker is defeated. In no way is this a feat for Exar Kun given Kyp Durron was nearly defeating Luke Skywalker on his own, and according to some sources, did so completely. Exar Kun merely tipped the presumably 50 - 50 balance. And then obviously note that Luke Skywalker could not even strike back against Exar Kun, for he is immune to all offensive Force attacks as a spirit.

"Luke closed his eyes and sent a tendril of thought to the back of Kyp's mind where the deep primal memories hid, leaving little room for conscious thought. Luke touched inward to the isolated nub in his subconscious. He pushed--and suddenly found himself hurled backward, tossed aside like a piece of fluff in a Bespin wind storm. He landed flat on his back on the other side of the room, gasping."

--Star Wars: Jedi Academy: Jedi Search

Now, I recognize you might argue that Exar Kun's spirit was more powerful than Kyp Durron anyway, so the point that Kyp Durron defeated Luke, and not Exar Kun, is mute, but I disagree. Clearly Kyp Durron when he first apprenticed himself to Exar Kun was not as powerful as Kun was in the flesh, but by his confrontation with Skywalker, little evidence suggests this to still be the case. You agree with the assessment that Kyp Durron in his prime is greater than Exar Kun in this thread here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t625725.html , so it shouldn't be that difficult believing it now either given the evidence I presented that Exar Kun had unlocked much of, if not all of, Kyp Duron's potential power. However, the field Kyp Durron still lacked in was mastery and control, in which while not that applicable in the fight with Luke Skywalker, was the reason for Durron's continuing to apprentice himself to Exar Kun and then later Luke Skywalker.

So, basically, I conclude that your main and honestly sole argument for Exar Kun being a powerhouse beyond Revan isn't remotely legitimate, and because of such we can conclude Revan to be the more powerful, skilled, masterful, important, and handsome Force-user.

Admit Kun's limitations, restrictions, failures, weakness, and inferiority.

stop trying so hard ur making urself look even more retarded than u already are

Why the harsh words, Jack?

Ngl but that was a pretty big letdown.