Revan 3.0 vs. Exar Kun

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's not vague.

Exar Kun himself possessed a great many other dark powers that he was unable to harness without the energy he needed to fuel his disembodied will. Some of these powers he was able to channel through Kyp, Gantoris, and Streen to achieve his ends.
- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook

This was maybe the most important quote in my position, and I don't think you addressed it at all.

A statement supported by the fact that Kyp Durron required his powers tapping into him to summon the Suncrusher and knock out Luke, a feat accredited indisputably to Kun by the fact that Kun was exhausted by the two feats and required dormancy afterwards, whereas Kyp Durron is absolutely none the worse for wear.

No, Kun was merely unlocking Durron's own potential.

EDIT: Also, wasn't Kun's exhaustion simply a theory by Corran Horan? 😂

Exar Kun is massively less powerful, have you even read the Jedi Academy sourcebook? He couldn't do anything without siphoning off of the energies of his thralls.

You simply look ignorant to be entirely honest.

He was very weakened before Luke's crew came up and during the early stages of their stay.

But after draining the life out of Gantoris and feeding significantly off of Durron's hate?

He was powerful enough to affect the physical realm, which is a clear sign he's approaching the power of his physical body.

In such a power state he confronted Luke, and even then Durron did almost all the heavy lifting, as per the sources I provided.

Nah arguing

potential unlocked Kyp=Vader

and potential unlocked Kyp+Nexus<<Spirit Kun<<Corporeal Kun

is what looks ignorant to be entirely honest

Seriously?

"He reached out with his mind, following the paths of the Force that led to every object in the universe, drawing power from the cosmic focal point of the Massassi temple. He searched, sending his thoughts like a probe deep into the storm systems of the gas giant. Behind him, Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt."

--Star Wars: Jedi Academy Trilogy: Dark Apprentice

Totes just Kyp's potential.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I agreed Exar Kun's spirit is weaker than the flesh,

Specifically, Exar Kun with Kyp Durron is weaker than the flesh, because he still can't access all of his power. 👆

but as my post pointed out, and you seemed to agree, the gap is not significant at all, and by the time he fought Luke Skywalker, barely even noticeable, given he was once again able to affect the physical realm, which is a spirit's main limitations and sign of weakness in comparison to it in a physical form. On a larger scale, like I said, reference back to Vitiate on Yavin IV and Ziost.

So because he can affect the physical realm, the difference must not be significant? LOL.

He might be able to affect the physical realm, but the question is to what extent relative to his living incarnation. Seeing as how the source in question claims that he can only access SOME of his powers, that hardly suggests he's anywhere near 100%.

And even if the difference were small, full power Exar Kun being able to defeat post DE Luke still wins for me, lol.

However, the fact spirit Exar Kun cannot wield all the powers of physical Exar Kun does not mean that the former is significantly weaker than the latter - just that it is weakened (if even), for it has to reserve more power to sustain its will, so it can't do large-scale Sith sorcery or rituals.

Concession accepted. Spirit Exar cannot expend as much energy, regardless of the reason, and thus if he can overpower Luke in that state, he can do it living. 👆

Wow, that was an epic failure.

As my text also pointed out, Exar Kun's spirit, as of his fight with Skywalker, should have enough reserves to bring to bear most of his powers, as supported by the fact that a quote reads that he brought down all of a Dark Lord of Sith's power.

Look over your own reading comprehension link; that he brought to bear all of a Dark Lord of the Sith's power doesn't mean "Exar is now as powerful of a Dark Lord of the Sith as he was while living". He's still a Sith Lord as a spirit, ergo the quote does not necessitate him being at 100%.

In either case, if we just had that quote to work with, your interpretation would be reasonable; since it contradicts mine, which is far less ambiguous, the more parsimonious interpretation is to conclude that he isn't at full power.

The additional aid of the nexus should allow him to fully exercise his powers without having to keep any of his own base power in reserve.

No. The nexus is what allows his spirit to survive and is a constant presence, so it cannot be disassociated from his described abilities. His being < flesh Exar is with the nexus included.

I've already explained this before. You pride yourself over being a Harvard debater but you can't comprehend even some basic shit.

Well, you literally conceded the debate by saying he can't use his full powers without using up his reserves, so thanks.

You also don't explain why this helps you at all, since the conclusion that a 100% Exar beat Luke is still pretty impressive, lol.

Jesus ****ing Christ, you're being ****ing retarded. We already went over how Skywalker didn't defeat Kun - Durron did. That was the entire point of my post and you even responded back saying I'm going to wank Durron to Palpatine level now. Nothing has changed since then given we're arguing something outside of that field. The "some powers" quote is not ****ing relevant because of that fact. Even then, we're still going around in circles because neither of you can grasp the fact that I agree that spirit Kun isn't as powerful as physical Kun, so stop stuffing the damn "some powers" quote in my face like it means anything. I acknowledge it, but also recognize that the quote merely means that he can't unleash all of his power because he must keep some away to maintain his spirit. It doesn't mean he's significantly weaker, you're just being retarded about that. As I've said a dozen times now, the fact Exar Kun can affect Luke Skywalker directly is proof that he's close to his full power set.

So, unless you address my actual post and stop babbling about stuff that we either already agree on or you lost the point anyway, get the **** out of the thread because I've accepted your concession fully.

PS: Kulvax, stop barging into threads like this. I have no interested in debating two of you ****s at the same time. If you think you have anything constructive to add, which you don't, PM Elm and he can incorporate it into his post. I don't want to respond to two people saying the same thing, just it's a competition of who acts more retarded while saying it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He was very weakened before Luke's crew came up and during the early stages of their stay.

But after draining the life out of Gantoris and feeding significantly off of Durron's hate?

He was powerful enough to affect the physical realm, which is a clear sign he's approaching the power of his physical body.

In such a power state he confronted Luke, and even then Durron did almost all the heavy lifting, as per the sources I provided.

Gantoris is stated to only tie him over until he can gain more energy from the other students.

He was powerful enough to have an effect on the physical realm because he had thralls to gain energy from, energy stated to only compensate for some of his great powers.

Kun is stated to return to his full power upon his resurrection, regaining his lost reserves of energy to live again, which would require draining Luke, Kyp and the other students.

He's clearly not even close to being at full power as is stated repeatedly in sourcebooks, the only leg you have to stand on is Kun becoming 'very powerful' off of Kyp's hate, which at best puts him on his Jedi incarnation, I.E far less powerful than his prime. His prime which is stated to be as of Tales of the Jedi, not the spirit leeching off of others in Jedi Academy.

Marka Ragnos needed the Scepter of Ragnos to rise again as a spirit, a Scepter fueled by Korriban, Yavin IV and others, yet Marka Ragnos is not as powerful as he once was.

This is a consistent theme among Sith spirits.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He was powerful enough to have am effect on.the physical realm bexause he had thralls to gain energy from, energy stated to only compensate for some of his great powers.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He's clearly not even close to being at full power as is stated repeatedly in sourcebooks, the only leg you have to dtamd on is Lun becpming 'very powerful' off of Kyp's hate, which at best puts him on his Jedi incarnation, I.E far less powerful than his prime. His prime which is stated to be as of Tales of the Jedi, not the spirit leeching off of others in Jedi Academy.

Using sorcery to any effect against Luke and being a good amount of the power and mastery necessary to pull a ship out of a star pretty much shits on what Jedi Kun has going for him tbh

I don't know where you got the idea that Spirit Kun being at less than full power means he's &#8805; Jedi Kun

I don't know where the idea that being less powerful means significantly less powerful.

Better yet, I don't know why this is relevant at all, because Durron defeated Skywalker, not Kun.

Once again, it says he can use some of his powers THROUGH Kyp Durron. This does not merely mean that:

Spirit Exar < Living Kun (and lmao @ thinking that being able to affect the physical world to an unquantified extent somehow proves he's "close" to his full power)

it also means that

Spirit Exar + Kyp Durron < Living Kun.

When it says Kyp is the one doing those things, that's still Exar channeling his power through him; the grammatical distinction of which subject to use aside, we know this is the case because Kyp is casting dark side tendrils that he obviously didn't just magically learn; Exar is using him as a vessel. Yes, some sourcebooks describe Kyp as the one who defeated Luke - but this was a Kyp being enhanced by Exar.

Then you respond by pointing out that Exar was just unlocking Kyp's potential. THIS DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THAT KYP IS STILL WEAKER THAN FULL POWER KUN, PER THE "SOME POWERS" QUOTE

Your reply to this, that Kun needs to reserve some of his powers to maintain his spirit form, concedes the f*cking point. The question of why spirit Exar + Kun < living Kun is irrelevant.

Now I put in effort to preempt your repetitive rebuttals, so please address those preemptions if you see them, OK?

No, it ****ing doesn't mean that. It doesn't have anything to do with Durron's weaknesses or limitations, but rather the natural limitations of a ****ing spirit.

Stop being ****ing idiotic, Jesus Christ.

And no, Kun taught him how to use tendrils, thus why he's using them. Kun isn't doing shit through him.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, it ****ing doesn't mean that. It doesn't have anything to do with Durron's weaknesses or limitations, but rather the natural limitations of a ****ing spirit.

And why would those limitations apply to the diversity of powers he can use, but not the extent to which he can unlock Kyp's potential?

If anything, the latter would be more constrained, because it's actually a matter of raw power, whereas the former is just a matter of breadth.

And why would he need to worry about his spirit's reserves if he's using Kyp's potential?

Your assertion that he can channel "some of his powers" because of some sort of weird limitation on using exotic rituals is a pretty transparent and hilarious ass-pull.

It also misses the meaning of the phrase "some". Hint: it doesn't mean "all except for like super complicated esoteric rituals."

And no, Kun taught him how to use tendrils, thus why he's using them. Kun isn't doing shit through him.

He's channeling Kyp's potential. But that channeled potential is still < full power Exar.

Because he has to expend his own power in order to unlock Durron's potential? Pretty obvious. As a spirit, he's unable to channel all his power through a spirit because he needs to keep energy in reserve to maintain his ****ing will, that's the entire point. Because of such he can only use some of his powers, for those that require greater expressions of powers than combat-applicable ones like Telekinesis or Force Lightning, such as Sith rituals, are beyond him. That's not even mentioning the completely neglected fact that Exar Kun doesn't have full control of the bodies he's channeling through power anyway, thus why he can only do this or that through them. He can't control their movements. That's also pretty obvious. Also, Kun used a lot of powers through his Sith gauntlets. As a spirit he doesn't have those, so regardless of channeling through someone, of course he still isn't going to be able to use powers like Force Blast.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
LMFAO.

Using sorcery to any effect against Luke and being a good amount of the power and mastery necessary to pull a ship out of a star pretty much shits on what Jedi Kun has going for him tbh

I don't know where you got the idea that Spirit Kun being at less than full power means he's < Jedi Kun

You massively missed the point, using an unquantifiable statement of 'very powerful' means nothing when we know that Kun in his prime had 'deep reserves of dark side energy' (capable of freezing the senate and still giving Vodo no chance of victory), with 'enormous', 'extreme' powers in his prime. Such powers so as to be 'far more powerful' than any one of Ulic, Thon, Odan-Urr, Vodo Siosk-Baas, Arca Jeth and Nomi Sunrider.

Him being far more powerful than Thon, who could manipulate and control Ambria's collective dark side energies and spirits, with a single-handed Wall of Light, whilst exhausted, the same energies Darth Zannah unlocked to summon dark side tendrils and defeat Darth Bane, puts Kun far above the point of contention you're ascribing him.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because he has to expend his own power in order to unlock Durron's potential?

If potential-unlocked Durron were more powerful than living Exar, he would be able to use more than "some" of Kun's powers.

Why would he have enough energy to unlock Durron beyond his own full power, but not enough to use rituals that said self could use without draining out? That doesn't make any sense.

That's not even mentioning the completely neglected fact that Exar Kun doesn't have full control of the bodies he's channeling through power anyway, thus why he can only do this or what through them. He can't control them to do a planet-wide ritual or this or that.

Then why does it say that he can "channel" these powers through them? It doesn't say he "teaches Kyp how to use" them, and the idea that Kyp learned how to use tendrils in a few days is kind of funny.

Kun was essentially guiding Kyp's actions, holding over his mind (so much that Kyp immediately surrendered to Han when Kun died), seeing what he was seeing from across the galaxy, etc.

That's also pretty obvious. Also, Kun used a lot of powers through his Sith gauntlets. As a spirit he doesn't have those, so regardless of channeling through someone, of course he still isn't going to be able to use powers like Force Blast.

🙄 Right, obviously. And when it says Sidious is the most powerful sith, they're actually referring to his fleet of star destroyers. 👆

Originally posted by AncientPower
You massively missed the point, using an unquantifiable statement of 'very powerful' means nothing when we know that Kun in his prime had 'deep reserves of dark side energy' (capable of freezing the senate and still giving Vodo no chance of victory), with 'enormous', 'extreme' powers in his prime. Such powers so as to be 'far more powerful' than any one of Ulic, Thon, Odan-Urr, Vodo Siosk-Baas, Arca Jeth and Nomi Sunrider.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Him being far more powerful than Thon, who could manipulate and control Ambria's collective dark side energies and spirits, with a single-handed Wall of Light, whilst exhausted, the same energies Darth Zannah unlocked to summon dark side tendrils and defeat Darth Bane, puts Kun far above the point of contention you're ascribing him.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because he has to expend his own power in order to unlock Durron's potential? Pretty obvious. As a spirit, he's unable to channel all his power through a spirit because he needs to keep energy in reserve to maintain his ****ing will, that's the entire point. Because of such he can only use some of his powers, for those that require greater expressions of powers than combat-applicable ones like Telekinesis or Force Lightning, such as Sith rituals, are beyond him. That's not even mentioning the completely neglected fact that Exar Kun doesn't have full control of the bodies he's channeling through power anyway, thus why he can only do this or that through them. He can't control their movements. That's also pretty obvious. Also, Kun used a lot of powers through his Sith gauntlets. As a spirit he doesn't have those, so regardless of channeling through someone, of course he still isn't going to be able to use powers like Force Blast.

He has the f**king temples to do that for him, the temples keep him from being absorbed into the void of the dark side.

You must be completely ignorant if you haven't even read Champions of the Force, Jedi Academy Sourcebook or the Essential Guide to the Force.

He has complete and utter control over Kyp, he induces rage in Kyp and corrupts him to the dark side via his possession, he has such strong control of Ky that he can even send him across the galaxy. When Kun is defeated by the meld and cast into the void, all of the corruption, anger and dark side power is instantly gone, he is described as a puppet on strings and when Kun is gone he feels like a tow cable controlling his body has snapped. You could even just read ILS' respect thread to find that out. Christ.