Originally posted by PetrusLol if they were anywhere near Kyp's level this would be a ROFLstomp. 😂
Okay, I give you Kavar's dozen soldiers TK feat and the stunning of people in the cantina.They're good, but I still hold it's not that impressive, certainly not nearly enough to prove they're anywhere near Kyp's level.
As for both Masters' feats against Surik, don't those things happen only if you go dark side? Not sure, though. Could be mistaken. If that's the case, however, I thought we were only taking into account the light side storyline of KotOR II, as it's the one that's official. If we're also considering dark side storyline feats, mid-game Surik still defeats each master individually in combat, and it's not like they tried to drain her or anything, so we can safely assume Surik is above them, and not even end-game Surik.
Telekinetically rebulding the Enclave is an OK feat, but not so much because we don't know the context of it. As far as we know, the three Masters could've TK'd the same stone at the same time and place it where it should be, which would greatly decrease the impressiveness of their individual powers.
As for the drain, I know she wasn't able to use it against Surik, but if the individual Traya is facing is way above her in terms of Force power and abilities, it's not certain that the drain will be as effective. Krayt drained Abeloth for a long period of time and did not manage to actually kill her.
That was never my argument, merely that they are very powerful, and certainly not featless. Instead these feats are easily in league with the likes of Ventress and Kenobi. Kreia's ability to dominate them all at once is therefore a very impressive display of telekinesis, and one that in that realm Kyp frankly hasn't matched. One-shotting them with drain being a level of offensive ability Kyp simply does not possess.
Some of those feats are from the DS path, but I don't see why that would make them inaccurate, and they are generally deemed as valid on these boards. And yes Meetra is stronger than then but that doesn't change the fact they are powerful enough to incapacitate her, in both the LS & DS paths. I'd infer that they are evidently more masterful in the Force, she also needed help to take them down.
Also Abeloth was significantly weakened by Krayt's drain, despite her being infinitely more powerful than him, so I'd say that example rather works against you.
Originally posted by Petrus
I honestly don't know what to make of that statement, tbh. It doesn't make a lot of sense. It would mean Hord, Ragnos, Sadow, etc >>>> almost anyone in terms of saber skill/power, especially if a skilled individual like Surik is like "a child playing with toys" compared to them. 😖
Or the gap between Surik and the top tiers of the mythos is incredibly large.
Originally posted by The EllimistKreia said he "may even rival the ancients" in that regard, but seeing as it took Vitiate, probably one of, if not the, most premier sorcerers in the ancient Sith Empire, a ten day ritual and 8,000 helpers to drain a single planet, we can infer she's either wrong, or referring to mastery rather than sheer power.
It was, although Force ability is kind of related. Wasn't it said somewhere that Nihilus's drain was inferior to that of the ancients? Ant claimed as much.
And not if we infer her to mean technical skill, "children playing with toys" to me indicates not so much weakness but crude simplicity, indicating those of the present day would be simply baffled by their technique.
Originally posted by PetrusSmart man. ✅
Unlikely. Considering her feats and her accolades I find that hard to believe. I seriously doubt someone like Kenobi or slightly-above him >>>> Surik.
Originally posted by Selenial
According to Traya, he is just about rivalling them.
And Nihilus is obviously vastly more powerful than Traya, while the "ancients" were quite noticeably weaker than Palpatine. It doesn't matter how you powerscale, you can't get to the conclusion that Traya and Kyp are anywhere near one another in ability. Not when Kyp seriously replicates the singularity feat with greater ease than Luke does, while Traya is nothing next to a guy who is nothing next to a guy who is nothing next to Palpatine.
Originally posted by Petrus
Unlikely. Considering her feats and her accolades I find that hard to believe. I seriously doubt someone like Kenobi or slightly-above him >>>> Surik.
Surik is probably weaker than Nyriss even when we consider the circumstances of their encounter. Nyriss is nothing next to Revan, who is not a whole lot next to Vitiate, who is noticeably weaker than Palpatine. Kyp, meanwhile, has more than a few sources fancying him to be Luke's rival in raw Force power. The disparity between the two is pretty ludicrous.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Kreia said he "may even rival the ancients" in that regard, but seeing as it took Vitiate, probably one of, if not the, most premier sorcerers in the ancient Sith Empire, a ten day ritual and 8,000 helpers to drain a single planet, we can infer she's either wrong, or referring to mastery rather than sheer power.
Pre-Nathema Vitiate isn't necessarily that powerful, and he wasn't just trying to drain a planet, he was trying to absorb its life force and make himself immortal.
And not if we infer her to mean technical skill, "children playing with toys" to me indicates not so much weakness but crude simplicity, indicating those of the present day would be simply baffled by their technique.Smart man. ✅
Maybe. It's still telling that Traya admits she's much weaker than Nihilus, and yet Nihilus's specialty is only on par with the analogous abilities of ancient sith. Even if we assume she's just talking out of her ass, she's still so far below Vitiate by several massive power gaps it's tough to see her being close enough to Durron for her drain to matter.
Originally posted by The EllimistHe was powerful enough to rally 8,000 Sith to his cause and then proceed to mentally enslave all them. And Nihilus drained planets to absorb their life force and sustain his existence, same difference. This of course being the only record of planetary drain we have from the period, and is treated as such by the succeeding Sith Empire.
Pre-Nathema Vitiate isn't necessarily that powerful, and he wasn't just trying to drain a planet, he was trying to absorb its life force and make himself immortal.
EDIT: In fact, Nyriss describes it as "the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted."
We should also remember that Obsidian's KOTOR III planned to envision the Sith (and I believe Revan) as much stronger than they've been prior and since depicted.
Maybe. It's still telling that Traya admits she's much weaker than Nihilus, and yet Nihilus's specialty is only on par with the analogous abilities of ancient sith. Even if we assume she's just talking out of her ass, she's still so far below Vitiate by several massive power gaps it's tough to see her being close enough to Durron for her drain to matter.Of course it actually isn't, and in truth Nihilus would humble most ancient Sith, and be a match for it's best. 👆
As for her being far beneath Vitiate, newsflash, so is Kyp Durron. 🙂
Vitiate's Nathema ritual was a one-time event that made him biologically immortal. It's clearly beyond Nihilus's, which only nourish him temporarily, and hardly have the same effect of removing color/the Force itself.
As for there being no documented planetary drains, I have never heard of that. I know that Sith like Exar Kun were able to enslave and drain off of planetary populations at their leisure. Regardless, it is true that we don't really witness the ancient siths' drains, so I'm basing that point on good faith of Traya's honesty and knowledge, so whatever.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
[B]
As for her being far beneath Vitiate, newsflash, so is Kyp Durron. 🙂
Nah. Multiple sources allude to Kyp rivaling Luke in raw power, to the point where he replicates Luke's singularity feats with less difficulty. Traya can get beaten by someone who can get beaten by someone who gets oneshotted by someone who gets oneshotted by Vitiate who is substantially weaker than Luke. The power chain is enormous.
That's powerscaling. Feats don't work for Traya much better - killing three featless Jedi is the most she has, while Kyp has tossed around freighters like toys and manipulated black holes. Traya simply isn't on his level.
Originally posted by The EllimistDifference between Nihilus and Vitiate was that the former was infected by a wound in the Force that was slowly eating away his life force, hence why his consumption failed to given him any measure of stability or immortality.
Vitiate's Nathema ritual was a one-time event that made him biologically immortal. It's clearly beyond Nihilus's, which only nourish him temporarily, and hardly have the same effect of removing color/the Force itself.As for there being no documented planetary drains, I have never heard of that. I know that Sith like Exar Kun were able to enslave and drain off of planetary populations at their leisure. Regardless, it is true that we don't really witness the ancient siths' drains, so I'm basing that point on good faith of Traya's honesty and knowledge, so whatever.
And exactly, you haven't heard of any. Despite us being largely aware of the most powerful contenders among the ancient Sith, and their relevant displays of power, none of them have been attributed with planetary drain.
Instead what Vitiate accomplished is said to be the most complex ritual ever performed, and is rendered taboo to speak of as if it would incite some kind of mass panic. You'd think if anyone else had achieved such a thing we'd have heard of it.
Nah. Multiple sources allude to Kyp rivaling Luke in raw power, to the point where he replicates Luke's singularity feats with less difficulty. Traya can get beaten by someone who can get beaten by someone who gets oneshotted by someone who gets oneshotted by Vitiate who is substantially weaker than Luke. The power chain is enormous.One being Kyp's biased opinion, the other being a dubious writing of Luke's feat as taking a greater toll on him, despite that implying Kyp has a level of power he no where demonstrates in the trilogy, that would put him well above Caedus, and would render him incapable of being challenged by a young Jaina. Hardly accurate assessment of Kyp's standing, more like one of many discrepancies between the books.
That'sFixed, and goodness they aren't all featless. I listed many of their feats on the past page, and Nova has made a good respect thread here:powerscalingcancer. Feats don't work for Traya much better - killing three featless Jedi is the most she has, while Kyp has tossed around freighters like toys and manipulated black holes. Traya simply isn't on his level.
What Traya has accomplished is better than anything Kyp's done in a combat situation and against another Force user. Educate yourself. 🙂
Originally posted by The EllimistExactly, Traya's assertions are a reflection of a continuity that never happened, hence we must align her claims with the less impressive reality. Which is certainly not what you claim it to be.
This was edited in after my post: I don't think the vision for KOTORIII really matters. It isn't compatible with what ends up happening.