Darth Traya vs. Kyp Durron (Force battle)

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Surik is probably weaker than Nyriss even when we consider the circumstances of their encounter. Nyriss is nothing next to Revan, who is not a whole lot next to Vitiate, who is noticeably weaker than Palpatine. Kyp, meanwhile, has more than a few sources fancying him to be Luke's rival in raw Force power. The disparity between the two is pretty ludicrous.

You think people like Kenobi, Ventress, Ahsoka, Maul, Fisto, or Gallia are miles above Surik and/or Traya?

Examples like that one are exactly why power-scaling doesn't always make sense. There's no way those guys are so far above those two. I agree that most of them are superior to the pair, but not by miles and miles.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Kreia said he "may even rival the ancients" in that regard, but seeing as it took Vitiate, probably one of, if not the, most premier sorcerers in the ancient Sith Empire, a ten day ritual and 8,000 helpers to drain a single planet, we can infer she's either wrong, or referring to mastery rather than sheer power.

And not if we infer her to mean technical skill, "children playing with toys" to me indicates not so much weakness but crude simplicity, indicating those of the present day would be simply baffled by their technique.

This makes much more sense, tbh.

Anyway, I'll reply now, Beni.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol if they were anywhere near Kyp's level this would be a ROFLstomp. 😂

True.

That was never my argument, merely that they are very powerful, and certainly not featless. Instead these feats are easily in league with the likes of Ventress and Kenobi. Kreia's ability to dominate them all at once is therefore a very impressive display of telekinesis, and one that in that realm Kyp frankly hasn't matched. One-shotting them with drain being a level of offensive ability Kyp simply does not possess.

We still have to consider the validity of the cut content where Traya TK's the four CMs. For now, we have Traya draining the three as, by far, her best feat. It's safe to assume that neither of these masters had any knowledge as to how to counter the drain. The masters not being anywhere near Kyp is what makes Traya's feats against them rather moot. It's obvious that she can perform such feats against opponents far weaker than Kyp. Although most of Kyp's TK feats don't happen against Force-users, his dovin basal feat alone > what Traya did against those masters. And even if not, he still has other considerable TK feats.

Some of those feats are from the DS path, but I don't see why that would make them inaccurate, and they are generally deemed as valid on these boards. And yes Meetra is stronger than then but that doesn't change the fact they are powerful enough to incapacitate her, in both the LS & DS paths. I'd infer that they are evidently more masterful in the Force, she also needed help to take them down.

Oh. Well, good to know that they are deemed valid around here, then.

Tbf, when Kavar stuns her [along with the soldiers], her defenses weren't even up, and she was not expecting it. They were conversing and it was a sudden move by him, so I wouldn't dig much into that feat. We don't know if Kavar would've been able to stun her if she had her Force defenses up. As for Vrook incapacitating her, again, this was not prime Surik. This was mid/early-game Surik, and she still managed to defeat him. Incapacitating someone who is beginning/is in-the-middle-of regaining her connection to the Force isn't that impressive IMO.

Also, she didn't need help to take Vrook down. In the dark side storyline, you take him down without the aid of your companions.

Also Abeloth was significantly weakened by Krayt's drain, despite her being infinitely more powerful than him, so I'd say that example rather works against you.

Yes, but the context and the circumstances were quite different. Krayt drains Abeloth for roughly an hour. During a battle/duel, Traya would not be able to drain Kyp for as much time, and it certainly would not be easier for her to keep draining him as he attempts to fight her.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Difference between Nihilus and Vitiate was that the former was infected by a wound in the Force that was slowly eating away his life force, hence why his consumption failed to given him any measure of stability or immortality.

Vitiate's ritual is still clearly more destructive; it made him exponentially more powerful, removed the Force and color itself from Nathema, etc. The Exile was well aware of Nihilus's deeds yet still got incredibly ill from touching foot on the planet.

And exactly, you haven't heard of any. Despite us being largely aware of the most powerful contenders among the ancient Sith, and their relevant displays of power, none of them have been attributed with planetary drain.

Instead what Vitiate accomplished is said to be the most complex ritual ever performed, and is rendered taboo to speak of as if it would incite some kind of mass panic. You'd think if anyone else had achieved such a thing we'd have heard of it.

All of this demonstrates is that there's no corroboration of Traya's claim. Regardless, I don't see a reason to think that Traya's assertion doesn't constitute valid evidence unto itself, seeing as how she was a scholar of sorts and had no clear incentive to downplay her own abilities relative to other sith, lol.

One being Kyp's biased opinion, the other being a dubious writing of Luke's feat as taking a greater toll on him, despite that implying Kyp has a level of power he no where demonstrates in the trilogy,

Why are you calling it dubious? It happened, didn't it? It corroborates Luke's own opinions of Kyp's potential way back in Jedi Academy, and the "biased" opinion Kyp had just espoused.

that would put him well above Caedus, and would render him incapable of being challenged by a young Jaina.[ Hardly accurate assessment of Kyp's standing, more like one of many discrepancies between the books.

Why would it put him above Caedus? Mid-NJO Luke isn't necessarily LotF or even TUF Luke.

Granted, I don't think Kyp is overall a superior Force user to NJO Luke - Luke seems to be out of practice/holding back until The Unifying Force. But that wasn't my point - my point was that this gap between Luke and Kyp is far smaller than the gap between Traya and Vitiate, which is absolutely craptastic.

Fixed, and goodness they aren't all featless. I listed many of their feats on the past page, and Nova has made a good respect thread here:

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/vrook-kavar-and-zez-kai-ell-respect-thread/97853/

These are...not very impressive.

What Traya has accomplished is better than anything Kyp's done in a combat situation and against another Force user.

Why are you artificially limiting feats to demonstrations against other combatants? Telekinesis is still telekinesis, and Kyp's is clearly so far beyond anything Traya has done he can probably crush her defenses and choke her to death outright. Where do you address his two major telekinesis feats again?

Educate yourself. 🙂Exactly, Traya's assertions are a reflection of a continuity that never happened, hence we must align her claims with the less impressive reality. Which is certainly not what you claim it to be.

Uh, no, her assertions occur in KotOR II, lol. And the "new" continuity doesn't help your case, because it clearly puts Traya waaaaaaay below a Vitiate who isn't really that close to Luke.

Originally posted by Petrus
You think people like Kenobi, Ventress, Ahsoka, Maul, Fisto, or Gallia are miles above Surik and/or Traya?

I don't see what this has to do with comparing her to Kyp, seeing as how none of those characters are really close to him, but I do think that all of them would beat Traya if we ignore the drain, yes. I don't think they're miles above her, but tbh they're probably below Kun/Ragnos.

Examples like that one are exactly why power-scaling doesn't always make sense. There's no way those guys are so far above those two. I agree that most of them are superior to the pair, but not by miles and miles.

Then what should we use instead? Feats? What does Traya have in that category, exactly?

Originally posted by Petrus
We still have to consider the validity of the cut content where Traya TK's the four CMs. For now, we have Traya draining the three as, by far, her best feat. It's safe to assume that neither of these masters had any knowledge as to how to counter the drain. The masters not being anywhere near Kyp is what makes Traya's feats against them rather moot. It's obvious that she can perform such feats against opponents far weaker than Kyp. Although most of Kyp's TK feats don't happen against Force-users, his dovin basal feat alone > what Traya did against those masters. And even if not, he still has other considerable TK feats.

And Kyp's dovin basal feat was achieved through extreme exertion, it's hardly combat applicable and really there are no instances of Kyp applying TK to such a magnitude in combat, so we can't assume he'd be quite as potent.

Oh. Well, good to know that they are deemed valid around here, then.

Tbf, when Kavar stuns her [along with the soldiers], her defenses weren't even up, and she was not expecting it. They were conversing and it was a sudden move by him, so I wouldn't dig much into that feat. We don't know if Kavar would've been able to stun her if she had her Force defenses up. As for Vrook incapacitating her, again, this was not prime Surik. This was mid/early-game Surik, and she still managed to defeat him. Incapacitating someone who is beginning/is in-the-middle-of regaining her connection to the Force isn't that impressive IMO.

Also, she didn't need help to take Vrook down. In the dark side storyline, you take him down without the aid of your companions.

Yes, but the context and the circumstances were quite different. Krayt drains Abeloth for roughly an hour. During a battle/duel, Traya would not be able to drain Kyp for as much time, and it certainly would not be easier for her to keep draining him as he attempts to fight her.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vitiate's ritual is still clearly more destructive; it made him exponentially more powerful, removed the Force and color itself from Nathema, etc. The Exile was well aware of Nihilus's deeds yet still got incredibly ill from touching foot on the planet.

Care to review your assessment?

All of this demonstrates is that there's no corroboration of Traya's claim. Regardless, I don't see a reason to think that Traya's assertion doesn't constitute valid evidence unto itself, seeing as how she was a scholar of sorts and had no clear incentive to downplay her own abilities relative to other sith, lol.

Why are you calling it dubious? It happened, didn't it? It corroborates Luke's own opinions of Kyp's potential way back in Jedi Academy, and the "biased" opinion Kyp had just espoused.

I mean if that were the case, why on earth was he not good enough to instantly restore Exar Kun to full strength? Certainly doesn't fit your theory of him being "feeble" in comparison.

All it aligns with is Kyp's own arrogant and delusional assertions.

Why would it put him above Caedus? Mid-NJO Luke isn't necessarily LotF or even TUF Luke.

Granted, I don't think Kyp is overall a superior Force user to NJO Luke - Luke seems to be out of practice/holding back until The Unifying Force. But that wasn't my point - my point was that this gap between Luke and Kyp is far smaller than the gap between Traya and Vitiate, which is absolutely craptastic.

These are...not very impressive.

Why are you artificially limiting feats to demonstrations against other combatants? Telekinesis is still telekinesis, and Kyp's is clearly so far beyond anything Traya has done he can probably crush her defenses and choke her to death outright. Where do you address his two major telekinesis feats again?

Uh, no, her assertions occur in KotOR II, lol. And the "new" continuity doesn't help your case, because it clearly puts Traya waaaaaaay below a Vitiate who isn't really that close to Luke.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
An assertion you make despite having no means of concluding whether Nihilus drained the colour from his targets or not, despite Meetra never visiting a world he drained (awareness =/= experience), and despite Nihilus' drain destroying structures where Vitiate's did not.

Pretty sure it's been clarified that Nihilus used orbital bombardment to destroy structures. As for whether it removed color...like, someone would have pointed that out. Meetra had heard of Nihilus and was utterly shocked by what she saw on Nathema, as if nobody bothered to tell her about the bizarre physics defying phenomenon of Nihilus's targets.

The Exile wasn't affected by Nihilus directly draining her, and yet just stepping foot on Nathema a thousand years afterwards made her physically ill. 👆

Care to review your assessment?

Nah.

Which works against the statements accuracy, and as I said either she is wrong or she is referring to mastery and refinement of the technique for example rather than raw power.

Ok, and why wouldn't mastery or refinement be relevant to gauging their overall combative prowess. This technique is Nihilus's specialty.

Because it fails to align with the rest of the material? And what opinion? Luke only surmised that he could be stronger than Vader if he went dark side, not stronger than himself.

Nah, that was a third person statement regarding Vader, which by the way would kind of kill this debate, so thanks for bringing it up. Luke said:

Indeed, the entire point of Kyp's character was that he was a monstrously powerful prodigy who posed a legitimate threat to Luke after just a few weeks and some amping from Kun. It's hardly some one-off comment of Luke's:

Of course, my best was nothing compared to Kyp Durron's best. Kyp's growth in the Force was nothing shy of incredible. In just over a week he surpassed anything the rest of us where doing by light-years. Master Skywalker didn't know what to do with him, he was so good. Kyp gave us hope that reestablishing the Jedi Order could be and would be done.
- I, Jedi

He thought about those he had trained: Kyp, so intense and so frighteningly powerful.

- Planet of Twilight

This is hardly an outlier, and can't be dismissed on face.

I mean if that were the case, why on earth was he not good enough to instantly restore Exar Kun to full strength? Certainly doesn't fit your theory of him being "feeble" in comparison.

Because he had a week of training?

All it aligns with is Kyp's own arrogant and delusional assertions.Because only 15 years later, Luke shat on Caedus like no Force user has shat on anyone than before. Unless we are to infer an absolute colossal power growth over that period, Kyp > Caedus, and certainly Jacen. Which is, to amend your phrase, absolute crap. Lol, OK.

15 years is a pretty long time, lmao.

Essentially you're trying to dismiss Kyp's most iconic feat not by examining how it isn't impressive, but by just...doing what? Asserting that it never happened? Was it an illusion or something?

Because these do not always correlate? See Vaylin getting trashed by Senya. Or Ventress' TK being stronger than CW Anakin's. Especially with Jedi, they are not always as great in combat.

Funny, Luke seems to think otherwise, seeing as how he viewed a dark side Kyp as a serious threat. But if you want to talk about powerscaling instead, you get nowhere aside from noticing that Traya is so far below Vitiate it's kind of comical.

Right, not sure you quite comprehended that. Oh well.

Tru, I forgot that you can literally dismiss a feat by appealing to your own personal incredulity. 👆

I will take Selenial's concession in stride. 👆

Beni, given that you've firmly established the telekinetic prowess of Traya, what do you take from this:

Traya uses vast telekinetic powers to wield a trio of lightsabers against her, but she is ultimately killed by the person she considered her greatest disciple.
-Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Force Wave can stun Kreia's floating lightsabers.
-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

It at the very least suggests Surik is capable of stifling Traya's control of the lightsabers imo.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I will take Selenial's concession in stride. 👆

You said you had Fisto above Traya, power wise.

I suddenly stopped giving a shit about your arguments.

Wonder why.

Originally posted by Selenial
You said you had Fisto above Traya, power wise.

I suddenly stopped giving a shit about your arguments.

Wonder why.

I mean, I know you're a Traya/Meetra wanker who's probably incredibly unhappy about the Revan novel, but your butthurt sadly does not constitute a legitimate argument.

Kyp Durron oneshots. 👆

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I mean, I know you're a Traya/Meetra wanker who's probably incredibly unhappy about the Revan novel, but your butthurt sadly does not constitute a legitimate argument.

Kyp Durron oneshots. 👆

Please quickly explain to me your reasons for having Fisto above Traya.

I already explained in the response you decided to ignore (to go to call Neph a pussy for running away from you lawl) that those two conditions weren't necessary for the analogy to make sense, seeing as how analogies don't need to be exact translations in magnitude.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I already explained in the response you decided to ignore (to go to call Neph a pussy for running away from you lawl) that those two conditions weren't necessary for the analogy to make sense, seeing as how analogies don't need to be exact translations in magnitude.

You don't seem to understand. Irrelevant towards the debate as it may be, you stated that you have Fisto above Traya in the force. It's a retarded viewpoint with no factual basis, and I no longer have enough respect for you to warrant a debate 🙂

If you want to justify your statement that Fisto is a stronger force user than Traya then I'm all game. If not, then what else do you want me to reply to so badly? You went off on a colossal tangent in your original point to me, debating numerous things I hadn't even mentioned in my post. Not once did I discuss Traya's ability to drain Kyp, I don't give a shit about this thread, I was merely picking up on misconceptions by someone who obviously hasn't had the time or want to educate themselves on, or play, KotOR II.

Originally posted by Selenial
You don't seem to understand. Irrelevant towards the debate as it may be,

lawl

You initially flamed me on my analogy - that is the debate you started, that my analogy was wrong. The Kit Fisto > Traya statement came as a [as explained below, unnecessary] subpoint of my response. You have messed this up pretty badly. A necessary condition for your rebuttal to make any sense is that you address the "irrelevant towards the debate" point, whereas I can drop the Fisto > Traya point altogether, and nothing happens.

you stated that you have Fisto above Traya in the force. It's a retarded viewpoint with no factual basis, and I no longer have enough respect for you to warrant a debate 🙂

Too bad sweetie, when you jump into someone else's argument, you don't have the choice of topic. The most you can demonstrate through this weird tangent of yours is your objection to a subpoint of my response to you. But given that's the only thing you've noted, you clearly can't do anything but concede your primary contention, .ie that my analogy didn't make sense.

Another tip in debating 101: my "Fisto > Traya" claim was intertwined in an even-if statement - that the analogy doesn't have to be exact, but even if it did, Fisto > Traya so it still works. However, the "even if" condition only kicks in if you can beat the initial contention, that the analogy doesn't need to satisfy your requirements. Since you never bothered to address that, you lose, and your debating rep continues to dwindle, or rather stay firmly at zero. 👆

Translation: Ellimist isn't confident he can justify Fisto > Traya so he's dodging the point.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Cut-content has been endorsed by Obsidian and Lucasfilm, however I admit I'm not 100% sure it's not fan made, and in this case it actually contradicts what happened instead of embellishing on it. Regardless as far as offensive ability goes, one-shotting three to four powerful CMs well exceeds Kyp's offense ability, and should be considered of considerable threat to him if she executes it successfully. It could also cripple his potential to exert a telekinetic edge over her.

Well, then that's that. We can dismiss her TKing of the four Jedi Masters feat.

I'm not sure her drain actually surpasses what Kyp has done offensively, tbh. Utilizing the drain ability on Force-users who have no defense against it is not a quantifiable feat, mainly because it does not give a clear picture of the extent of Traya's Force abilities and it only indicates that the masters don't know a counter technique. It's like when Dooku used his lightning against Savage. He clearly had no defense against it, and if Ventress wasn't there he could've easily killed him by continuing to use it. But in an actual 1v1 without the use of lightning, we realized Savage was a beast with TK and had great Force power that we would've otherwise not seen, and that Dooku wasn't as far above him as we would think.
She killing the masters by draining them only tells us is that they had no defense against her drain, but it doesn't necessarily mean she would be able to defeat them in an actual battle, whether it be a 1v3 duel or a Force battle, utilizing TK and other abilities. Therefore, I don't consider her one-shotting of the Masters as impressive as it seems. She's clearly above them, but by how much I'm not sure.

And Kyp's dovin basal feat was achieved through extreme exertion, it's hardly combat applicable and really there are no instances of Kyp applying TK to such a magnitude in combat, so we can't assume he'd be quite as potent.

It may not be combat applicable, but it shows us a clear picture of his mastery of TK and his sheer Force power. And it's not like we haven't seen him utilize TK or other Force abilities in combat. The fact that Luke feared Kyp's powers and potential should work as an effective reference in comparing him to someone like Traya, who was beaten by the Exile in a potent dark side nexus.

True but she's still fairly powerful at that stage, and I meant in the sense that Kreia telepathically aids you in uncovering and exploiting their stylistic weaknesses.

Kreia aiding you telephatically only works against your argument that she's fairly powerful at that stage of the game. I don't deny she was a skilled duelist and combatant at that stage, but the fact that Kreia feels the need to help you against the master is a clear indication that Surik's abilities weren't that well-developed by then, and even then, she still manages to defeat the seasoned CM with a supposedly higher mastery over the Force. I think Surik would've defeated Vrook had Traya not helped her, although it would've been closer.

I'd like to see a source for it being an hour, since time is said to flow incomprehensibly in the Beyond Shadows. Not that it matters as again Abeloth is infinitely more powerful than Krayt, the same is not true for Kyp in regards to Traya.

Either way, in a strict duel scenario, Traya wouldn't be able to drain Kyp as Krayt drains Abeloth. And sure, Kyp may not be infinitely more powerful, but he clearly is above her, based on accolades and feats alone.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
lawl

You initially flamed me on my analogy - that is the debate you started, that my analogy was wrong. The Kit Fisto > Traya statement came as a [as explained below, unnecessary] subpoint of my response. You have messed this up pretty badly. A necessary condition for your rebuttal to make any sense is that you address the "irrelevant towards the debate" point, whereas I can drop the Fisto > Traya point altogether, and nothing happens.

No, you see your entire analogy was put in to display just how far Kyp is above Traya. If you surrender that Fisto < Traya, your entire analogy is over-exaggerated and irrelevant.

The difference with me calling your statements cancer is that mine was clearly a joke, whereas you went on to back up your analogy as your genuinely held opinion. If you're refusing to back that up, you're conceding the debate 🙂

Originally posted by Nephthys
Translation: Ellimist isn't confident he can justify Fisto > Traya so he's dodging the point.

👆

Kit being above Traya in power is laughable and can't even be proved.

Elm lost this one tbh.

Kyp stomps.