When does Luke surpass Palpatine?

I sort of made a thread like this earlier, but oh well.

When does Luke surpass...

TPM Sidious
RotS Sidious
RotJ Sidious
DE Sidious

1. In sabers?
2. In the Force?
3. In overall combative ability?

TPM Sidious:
- by post-Dark Empire in sabers
- by mid of the New Republic era (around 20 ABY) in the Force
- by post-Dark Empire overall

RotS Sidious:
- by somewhere in the NJO era in sabers,
- by end of the New Republic era - 25 ABY - in the Force,
- by somewhere in the NJO era overall

RotJ Sidious:
- by somewhere in the NJO era in all

DE Sidious:
- by somewhere in the NJO era in sabers,
- by end of the NJO in TUF,
- by somewhere in mid of NJO.

That is shockingly reasonable. mmm

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Logically, it's somewhere in the late NR era. That's regarding DE Sidious. He'll obviously surpass Sheev in sabers a bit earlier than whenever it takes for him to surpass Sheev in the Force.

Probably sometime in those never read nineties SW books where he's collapsing entire fortresses and stuff to the NJO. He seemed like he was capable of monstrous feats that was beyond to what ROTS Sidious was capable of, he unquestionably surpassed DE Sidious in Dark Nest

My personal canon puts beginning-of-NJO Luke on RotJ Sidious's level as a Force user, and already beyond DE Sidious as a duelist. I'd say he surpasses DE Sidious as a Force user sometime around when he starts manipulating black holes.

Gideon used to believe that Luke hadn't surpassed Palpatine by TUF. mmm

I heard Gideon died or something.

Luke's power didn't grow consistently, IMO. He progressed steadily between ESB and Thrawn, then jumped in power just prior to & during the events of Dark Empire. His power grew a little after that, then waned in the years leading up to the Vong War. After that campaign started he jumped in power again, and reached his physical peak around ~TUF. After that in the following series (DN, LotF) he probably waned some physically, but in exchange expanded his Force knowledge by several paces as of FotJ.

DE Palpatine? Never.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He progressed steadily between ESB and Thrawn, then jumped in power just prior to & during the events of Dark Empire.

If RotJ Luke really could match Vader in a duel, it seems like you don't need a jump in power just before DE for him to be at that level after several years. It seems like his big jump was from ESB -> RotJ.

His power grew a little after that, then waned in the years leading up to the Vong War.

Is that actually stated? In the Black Fleet Trilogy he was doing stuff like tearing down fortresses and cloaking capital ships.

After that campaign started he jumped in power again, and reached his physical peak around ~TUF.

What do you mean by "physical peak"? In unamped physicality he probably peaked at around DE.

After that in the following series (DN, LotF) he probably waned some physically, but in exchange expanded his Force knowledge by several paces as of FotJ.

Did his raw power increase though?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
DE Palpatine? Never.

So Leia can push DE Luke over FotJ Luke? Lol.

Besting a sorcerer in a duel doesn't necessarily mean you're more powerful than the Sorcerer. As for the Force Storm, Luke and Leia were only able to destabilize it because Palpatine's control over the ability was already limited. If it came down to a wizards duel between them, Luke and Leia would probably have been destroyed, Force Harmony or not.

As for DE Palpatine vs Peak Luke--Luke's the stronger of the two, but Palpatine's willingness to harness forbidden and dangerous powers that Luke isn't is a massive advantage. Regardless of the fact that he's stronger, Luke can't hold a candle to the destructive potency of a Force Storm, for instance.

Amped! Luke must have been close enough to Palpatine in raw power to beat him so handily in their duel, even if he were orders and bounds above him in technical skill, which would be unlikely anyway. See: Kas'im vs. PoD Bane. I'd say that gap would realistically be covered and exceeded by Luke's power growth by sometime in NJO. Leia's Force harmony probably isn't a miracle super-haxx that unlocks like more of his potential than decades of improvement does. We also know that Luke's potential outstrips Palpatine's - it's unlikely that he hasn't surpassed him by LotF.

That's powerscaling. Feats is a little harder; Force storms are more destructive than anything Luke's done, but Luke obviously wouldn't use storms anyway. It's also a special technique - Luke's feats using just basic applications like telekinesis outstrip Palpatine's, and lead me to believe he's got more raw power overall, if not the same set of Force abilities.

EDIT: ninja'd by your edit. Luke may not have Force storms, but he has powers that we haven't seen Palpatine use like shatterpoint, fold space, mind walking, Force harmony, etc.

Just how powerful do you guys think a no-restraints dark sided peak Luke would be?

Originally posted by Petrus
Just how powerful do you guys think a no-restraints dark sided peak Luke would be?

Above post-pool Taalon, but below the super-saiyan Luke that was still weaker than Abeloth, IMHO. So, could probably beat two DE Sidious's. If he gets prep time, I'm not sure if any combination of powers present in the galaxy could stop him.

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Originally posted by DarthAnt66
DE Palpatine? Never.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
DE Palpatine? Never.