DoE Darth Bane vs. mid-Legacy Darth Krayt

Originally posted by MythLord
I was trolling, though obviously non of the holocrons thought of Krayt and the One Sith as true Sith

You had Andeddu, who was trolling because he planned to eventually trying to manipulate one of them into providing him a body. You had Nihilus... who the heck knows what he said?

Then you have Bane, who feels sith shouldn't have orders, talking to someone who created a new sith order.

They're directly ideologically opposed. That's not about power, that's about Rule of X rivalry.

That, and Sith always hate each other, especially from rival orders.

Note that Muur thought Krayt's strength in the force would make for a powerful body, for the opinion of an Ancient sith with different priorities.

Originally posted by SunRazer
On a more serious note, Bane can't be the most knowledgeable Sith up to his time for the simple fact that he's illiterate in Sorcery and Alchemy.

"Devoted"? Bane has no access to any sort of Sorcery, devoted or not. That he has holocrons of Sorcerers doesn't mean you can consider that "knowledge". "Illiterate" is a strong word, since I believe he was able to transcribe the spells in Nadd's holocron to Zannah, but that he wasn't able to make use of those transcriptions by virtue of not being a Sorcerer is my point. Sorcery, Alchemy etc. all make up a pretty big part of Sith knowledge. It's kind of hard to see Bane as the most knowledgeable Sith up to his time if he lacks that, since we know Bane's library. I mean, can you really say he's more knowledgeable than Vitiate or even Kun?

I can say he's certianly more knowledgable than Kun. But I do agree Vitiate > him in knowledge. Anyways, the fact that Bane can't use them is irrelevant, he knows about them himself and has studied alchemy and sorcery. From what I recall, there's a passage in DoE that specifically notes Bane studied ways to defend against Sorcery. You can't really claim he doesn't know it if he has dozens of holocrons to draw from and he knows ways to counter it.

Lol a far greater debater than you couldn't prove Bane has more knowledge than Exar Kun, and he's the foremost authority on the character.

Furthermore the statement you alluded to claims he has greater mastery not just knowledge, yet he hasn't the ability to weild sorcery let alone master it. Exar Kun comparatively being one of the greatest sorcerers and alchemists nevermind a master of that sphere of knowledge, completely destroys that claim.

Given that DMB himself acknowledges I'm comparable, I wouldn't call him "far greater", even though I freely admit he's certianly my superior. Also, I wouldn't attempt to ad hominem someone who you've currently failed to respond to in, what now, three or four arguments?
But if you wanna keep spreading that sodium around I wouldn't mind. I find your futile attempts to prove a type of superiority over any competent debater funny and adorable. Never change, AP.

DMB hasn't replied in our last debate, you baffoon. Thanks for dodging the argument and proving you have nothing of substance to contribute.

P.S Do you call that grammar where you're from?

I wasn't referring to DMB's argument with you on Kun VS Bane, you baffoon. Thanks for giving me another post to laugh at, though. You really are something special.

Literally all your posts mean nothing, you're hot air with no back-up. Quit sh!t posting and contribute something to defend your argument or concede to me and Razer.

Originally posted by MythLord
I can say he's certianly more knowledgable than Kun. But I do agree Vitiate > him in knowledge. Anyways, the fact that Bane can't use them is irrelevant, he knows about them himself and has studied alchemy and sorcery. From what I recall, there's a passage in DoE that specifically notes Bane studied ways to defend against Sorcery. You can't really claim he doesn't know it if he has dozens of holocrons to draw from and he knows ways to counter it.

I made a comparison of Bane and Kun's knowledge in one of the other threads and people seemed to agree. Bane's amassed similar amounts of knowledge to Kun but isn't a Sorcerer or Alchemist, which does reduce his knowledge somewhat.

The passage in DoE claims that Bane understood that strong willpower was the key to defending against Sorcery, as I recall.

And if Bane isn't more knowledgeable than Vitiate in knowledge, well, he isn't the most knowledgeable Sith Lord up to his time.

The moment Razer posts an counter-argument that I agree with, I will gladly concede. Until then, I'll watch a random idiot on the internet yell at me cause I dared to think Bane > her/his favourite character.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I made a comparison of Bane and Kun's knowledge in one of the other threads and people seemed to agree. Bane's amassed similar amounts of knowledge to Kun but isn't a Sorcerer or Alchemist, which does reduce his knowledge somewhat.

The passage in DoE claims that Bane understood that strong willpower was the key to defending against Sorcery, as I recall.

And if Bane isn't more knowledgeable than Vitiate in knowledge, well, he isn't the most knowledgeable Sith Lord up to his time.

I made that statement partially because I was trolling. Anyways, him not being able to combatively apply it wouldn't reduce his knowledge. He still has all of Nadd's knowledge(which is Exar's primary source) alongside an entire library of ancient Sith texts, Andeddu's holocron, most of Revan's knowledge, among other things. Bane has more sources to draw from, simply, and that's that. Kun is definitely a more skilled Sorceror, but I wouldn't call him overall more knowledgable.

Do you even understand the statement upon which your entire argument is based? It states PoD Bane is the most powerful, masterful and has the most knowledge.

Him not achieving any mastery over sorcery or alchemy and having Essence Transfer as his biggest claim to technique fame, doesn't support the interpretation that said accolade refers to all of Sith history at all.

Calling me names in defense of your non-argument only makes you appear indefensible not some intellectual diety.

What statement were you trolling with?

Bane has more sources to draw from? Kun sacked the Library on Ossus and got access to everything there. He also had access to the Dark Holocron and the Tedryn Holocron, neither of which fell into Bane's possession that I'm aware of. And again, Bane had access to Freedon Nadd's holocron but couldn't make anything out of the Sorcery-related aspects of it, whereas Kun could.

@Razer, I'll respond later today, or tomorrow.

Originally posted by SunRazer
What statement were you trolling with?

Bane being more knowledgable than Vitiate.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Bane has more sources to draw from? Kun sacked the Library on Ossus and got access to everything there. He also had access to the Dark Holocron and the Tedryn Holocron, neither of which fell into Bane's possession that I'm aware of. And again, Bane had access to Freedon Nadd's holocron but couldn't make anything out of the Sorcery-related aspects of it, whereas Kun could.

Bane could and did make things out from the Sorcery-related knowledge from Nadd's holocron, he simply didn't have a talent for it. But neither did Plagueis have a whole lot of talent in Sorcery, and you'd certainly agree he's more knowledgable than Kun. From what I recall, Traya, and by extention Revan(who Bane learned from) had the Dark Holocron. Either way, Revan himself had an entire planets worth of knowledge from both the Jedi and the Sith, and Bane was his primary teacher and main source of information back in the day. Given that Revan himself, as per Traya, learned "everything he could from the Jedi", wouldn't that include the Great Jedi Library's knowledge, which was recovered from the ruins? On top of that, Revan had loads more knowledge Bane has access to. Bane also has entire libraries worth of Sith knowledge, and knowledge from several of the most powerful Sith Lords up to his time. Whereas relative to that Kun has Nadd, Sadow, and the Ossuss library which from logical inference Bane would've had, as well.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Do you even understand the statement upon which your entire argument is based? It states PoD Bane is the most powerful, masterful and has the most knowledge.

Him not achieving any mastery over sorcery or alchemy and having Essence Transfer as his biggest claim to technique fame, doesn't support the interpretation that said accolade refers to all of Sith history at all.

Calling me names in defense of your non-argument only makes you appear indefensible not some intellectual diety.

This post is both salty and hilarious. Kudos to that. Anyways, that statement, if you've actually seen the source material for yourself, is from a segment of "Deadly Darth" which depicts Bane from his time with the Brotherhood to until he found Nadd's and Belia's holocrons. In other words, he has Nadd, Revan and an entire Academy's worth of knowledge at the time.

Him not being a devoted Sorceror, and thus not being as talented in that field, doesn't mean he himself lacks any knowledge on Sorcery itself, given he's actually taken part in rituals before. And in Book of the Sith Bane actually writes how to create Dark Armour through use of Alchemy, and he himself has taken part in rituals while in the Brotherhood of Darkness. So he's certianly not inept and illiterate in that field.

And I love your massive double standards of me pretending to be some "intellectual diety" and how I'm "calling you names" when you first ad hominemed me because you can't keep your hormones in control and are placing yourself on a high horse you have no place being on.

I'll respond later.

Combined knowledge and mastery that doesn't equate to Kun having:

- Dark Holocron, which Revan nor Traya were around to have used as Kun destroyed it. Contains a hundred thousand years of Sith knowledge and numerous Sith spirits.

- Tedryn Holocron, stated to have seemingly infinite data and has incalculable value in terms of knowledge.

- Naga Sadow's unearthed treasury, which Nadd never found and was later considered to be too dangerous to share by Reborn Palpatine.

- Great Library on Ossus, stated to have obtained more knowledge than he would ever need, the Jedi Archives on Coruscant by the PT era are stated to be the Great Library's equivalent.

-Genuine mastery of sorcery and alchemy, one of the greatest ever, even greater than Naga Sadow. Sorcery stated by none other than Darth Bane himself to be the purest expression of the dark side and considered by Darth Plagueis to have made Sith like Kun more powerful.

There isn't much basis for Bane having equal knowledge to that, nor does he have nearly the mastery Exar Kun did. Yet another reason why that accolade isn't logical.

Kun didn't destroy the Dark Holocron, since Dooku later stole it from the Temple and studied from it.

You have, I presume, read the actual Tales of the Jedi series? Out of respect I'd remind you he smashes it with his fist and the spirits released possess the Jedi Knights who go on to slay their Jedi Masters.

You're also kind of out-of-date, Essential Guide to the Force made it clear that they were two separate Holocrons.