Maul Brothers vs. Dooku

Originally posted by MythLord
I question if Savage is legitimately more powerful than Kenobi, or at least not by any substantial margin to cancel out being thrown by Dooku who needed a "negligent flick of a wrist" to dispatch Kenobi.

Yah, Dooku isn't dismissing him in a neutral setting, not remotely.

Damn it Wollf! Not this whipcrack of power shit again 🙁

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He clearly is based of his showings, many of which rival Dooku's own. Multiple sources also make out Savage as a serious threat to Dooku, and indeed in a moment of rage Savage was able to choke out Dooku and Ventress simultaneously, a state in which it took "all the power" of Dooku and Ventress to defend against.

Yah, Dooku isn't dismissing him in a neutral setting.

Savage's showings aren't better than Kenobi's, not by any substantial margin, if any at all. Savage was a legitimate threat with the aid of Asajj or if he was enraged and Dooku was distracted, yes. Prior to that, StarWars.com confirms Dooku's far more powerful than Opress:

Asajj Ventress and Savage Opress wage a combined attack against Dooku, whose abilities with the Force far surpass those of his apprentices.

Source:http://www.starwars.com/video/dooku-vs-his-apprentices

So yeah, I don't see why Dooku couldn't dispatch Savage via his superior command of the Force.

Dooku's "negligent flick of the wrist" ragdoll against Obi-Wan was accomplished after "drawing in the power of the universe".

Likewise, his quote about being far more powerful than Savage happened before the latter grew in power under Maul's tutelage. Would Dooku still be able to ragdoll him? I doubt it, really.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Dooku's "negligent flick of the wrist" ragdoll against Obi-Wan was accomplished after "drawing in the power of the universe".

So he drew in the power of the universe, then used a negligable portion of that power to dispatch Kenobi? How does that change anything?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Likewise, his quote about being far more powerful than Savage happened before the latter grew in power under Maul's tutelage. Would Dooku still be able to ragdoll him? I doubt it, really.

Unless Savage is the new Chosen One, his potential shouldn't be so high that after a year he would go from being far inferior to being comparable. Especially not when Dooku's own potential in the Force was an enigma to even Yoda, hence the Count would've likely improved as well.

Well, being generous, the two cancel out. Ergo, Dooku does need to put in effort on a general basis to overwhelm Obi-Wan. Also, I believe that was a Force Push, not an outright ragdoll as he would later do.

The Count would've improved, but Savage moreso - given that Savage is a sibling of Maul, whose potential in the Force is drastically greater than the Count's, chances are that Savage grows at a much greater rate than Dooku does.

Originally posted by MythLord
Savage's showings aren't better than Kenobi's, not by any substantial margin, if any at all.

Nor am I particularly impressed by Kenobi's ability to floor several dozen Pykes with the aid of Anakin, when with the aid of his brother Savage was able to blow away (lethally I might add) nigh a hundred soldiers...

Savage was a legitimate threat with the aid of Asajj or if he was enraged and Dooku was distracted, yes.

Prior to that, StarWars.com confirms Dooku's far more powerful than Opress:

Source:http://www.starwars.com/video/dooku-vs-his-apprentices

So yeah, I don't see why Dooku couldn't dispatch Savage via his superior command of the Force.

On the other hand, the fact that all it took was a rage amp for Savage to dominate Dooku and Ventress simultaneously, pushing the Count to his limits, proves in overall power Savage wasn't that away from him at all.

This of course, as Razer points out, being before he experienced a significant growth in power. 👆

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Count would've improved, but Savage moreso - given that Savage is a sibling of Maul, whose potential in the Force is drastically greater than the Count's, chances are that Savage grows at a much greater rate than Dooku does.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, being generous, the two cancel out. Ergo, Dooku does need to put in effort on a general basis to overwhelm Obi-Wan. Also, I believe that was a Force Push, not an outright ragdoll as he would later do.

They don't cancel each other out. The full quote says:

Taken from the Revenge of the Sith novelisation
He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

So Dooku draws in power "throughout the universe" which is Stover's hyperbolic way of saying he drew on the Force, and then uses "the slighest, negligable whipcrack of that power" to dispatch Kenobi. Again, doesn't really mean he needs some effort to get rid of Obi-Wan. And the fact that it's something as measily as a Force Push from Dooku that incapacitates Obi only helps Dooku's case.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Count would've improved, but Savage moreso - given that Savage is a sibling of Maul, whose potential in the Force is drastically greater than the Count's, chances are that Savage grows at a much greater rate than Dooku does.

Based on what is Maul's potential "drastically greater" than Dooku's? And I'm not sure just how comparable Savage would be to Maul given he needed Nightsister Magicks to actually even become Force sensitive and even twins don't always have the exact amount of potential(Leia and Luke being the best example). Savage might've grown more than Dooku, but himself has grown and has dispatched someone who's power rivals Opress'.

That Dooku had to actually gather power (ie. indrawn breath)

Maul's potential is obviously drastically greater than Dooku's because he's around the same level despite being well over fifty years younger than the Count. Not to mention implications that his potential supersedes Talzin's, who is leagues above Tyranus in the Force. Also, if we're talking about raw potential, Leia's right up there with Luke, and Sidious even claimed that Leia could be more powerful (his sincerity can be called into question, though).

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Can you substantiate that claim with something? Because I'm not seeing any evidence that Kenobi can manipulate large shuttles with ease, blow apart a cell reinforced with Mandalorian iron, or generate Force repulses that blow away the likes of Maul, Anakin and indeed Kenobi himself.

Um, Kenobi has collapsed four trees larger than a massive shuttle, blew apart Durge(who's unharmed by dozens of blaster bolts or explosions that damage Anakin), and has deflected blows from Mustafar Vader, traded telekinetic blows with Vader, and somehow that doesn't matter because he was floored by one of an enraged Savage's waves with his back turned?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nor am I particularly impressed by Kenobi's ability to floor several dozen Pykes with the aid of Anakin, when with the aid of his brother Savage was able to blow away (lethally I might add) nigh a hundred soldiers...

Prior to them growing in power(Anakin in particular grew "vastly"😉 and in a medium which lowballs Force sensitives where not even Dooku could do anything but floor a doezn Pykes for a few seconds.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That doesn't prove Dooku is far more powerful than Savage in general. Ventress? Certainly. But the only advantage he had against Savage was his Force lightning, which indeed is an ability that far surpasses anything Opress had mastered, and which he had no defense against.

On the other hand, the fact that all it took was a rage amp for Savage to dominate Dooku and Ventress simultaneously, pushing the Count to his limits, proves in overall power Savage wasn't that away from him at all.

This of course, as Razer points out, being before he experienced a significant growth in power. 👆

It kinda does, given that the lightning Dooku threw at Savage did nothing but slow him down and it says "abilities", which means it's more than just the singular ability of lightning.

All it took was for Dooku to not even face Savage and Opress to get a rage amp for him to choke and throw Dooku, yes. Somehow that means he isn't going to be hurled back by Dooku's own TK?

And I'm well aware of his growth in the Force, but Dooku would've likely had a growth as well given his own substantial potential in the Force, albeit it not as noticeably as Opress.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That Dooku had to actually gather power (ie. indrawn breath)

And then uses an incredibly negligable and small portion of said power and still ends up incapacitating Kenobi with a measily Force Push.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Maul's potential is obviously drastically greater than Dooku's because he's around the same level despite being well over fifty years younger than the Count. Not to mention implications that his potential supersedes Talzin's, who is leagues above Tyranus in the Force. Also, if we're talking about raw potential, Leia's right up there with Luke, and Sidious even claimed that Leia could be more powerful (his sincerity can be called into question, though).

Meh, fair enough. Although Maul did have much more intensive training than Dooku, which would've helped his skill and power grow at a much faster rate.
Although, I'd still say that, while Dooku and Maul are around the same level, Dooku's noticeably superior(at least in power).

1. "Incapacitate" sounds like a rather generous term. He just floored him for a bit, as I recall.

2. There's really nothing you can say to make up for over 50 years of difference between their ages/growth times. Not to mention that Maul spent a good decade rotting away as a crazy hermit, which makes up for your "intensive training" excuse anyway. And Dooku managed to study the Force and the dark side to a much greater degree, which we know also influences one's power.

Would just like to point out that that "whipcrack" of power only floored Kenobi, it didn't KO him. This is the description of Dooku's KO:

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.

Wouldn't that be lovely?

There was no sense in taking chances, however.

While Kenobi's bonelessly limp body was still tumbling toward the floor far below, Dooku sent a surge of energy through the Force. Kenobi's fall suddenly accelerated like a missile burning the last of its drives before impact. The Jedi Master struck the floor at a steep angle, skidded along it, and slammed into the wall so hard the hydrofoamed permacrete buckled and collapsed onto him.

This Dooku found exceedingly gratifying.

So yeah, there isn't really evidence that this is something he can easily accomplish. If anything it took a good beating.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. "Incapacitate" sounds like a rather generous term. He just floored him for a bit, as I recall.

He was out of the picture until Anakin started working Dooku up the stairs which, in the novel, happened after several exchanges.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. There's really nothing you can say to make up for over 50 years of difference between their ages/growth times. Not to mention that Maul spent a good decade rotting away as a crazy hermit, which makes up for your "intensive training" excuse anyway. And Dooku managed to study the Force and the dark side to a much greater degree, which we know also influences one's power.

Yeah, fair enough. Although, Shadow Conspiracy does note that Maul becoming a "crazy hermit" for a decade apparently strengthened him:

[QUOTE][B]Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.

I think that refers to strength of character, but alright.

I'm just here, waiting for ILS to see this thread, tbh 🙄

Maul disposed of Savage with little effort. If Savage is Obi-Wan territory that means Maul would have to be at least a tier up with the likes of Yoda and Sidious, I don't like that. Savage is a tier down from Anakin, Obi-Wan, Maul etc

But then I guess he did well against Dooku, Ventress and co so who knows. He's probably just inconsistent

Originally posted by MythLord
For 3/10 🙂

Originally posted by MythLord
Um, Kenobi has collapsed four trees larger than a massive shuttle, blew apart Durge(who's unharmed by dozens of blaster bolts or explosions that damage Anakin), and has deflected blows from Mustafar Vader, traded telekinetic blows with Vader, and somehow that doesn't matter because he was floored by one of an enraged Savage's waves with his back turned?

In fact, we see Kenobi exert notably more effort in pushing Durge's smaller craft.

And regarding Durge, first of all he isn't blaster proof, instead we've seen blasters go straight through him. And he only tanked an explosion when armoured, with undetermined damage done to his physical body.

So no, blowing apart a cell of Mandalorion iron > blowing apart Durge, and that's without scaling Savage of OCW's exaggerated showings. 😉

Moving on, trading blows with a hindered Vader doesn't change the fact his feats are holistically inferior to Savage's, whose powers he's repeatedly been overwhelmed by. And considering Savage replicated that feat on Toydaria and his repulses have blown Maul off his feet, I really don't think Kenobi being forward facing would have made a difference.

Prior to them growing in power(Anakin in particular grew "vastly"😉 and in a medium which lowballs Force sensitives where not even Dooku could do anything but floor a doezn Pykes for a few seconds.

Also Kenobi's growth is what's important here, and I'm not seeing any evidence to suggesting it enough to make up for feats an order of magnitude superior to his own.

It kinda does, given that the lightning Dooku threw at Savage did nothing but slow him down and it says "abilities", which means it's more than just the singular ability of lightning.

All it took was for Dooku to not even face Savage and Opress to get a rage amp for him to choke and throw Dooku, yes. Somehow that means he isn't going to be hurled back by Dooku's own TK?

And what with this obsession with being forward facing? Yes, Savage dominated Dooku fair and square, and it took "all the power" of Ventress and Dooku combined to defeat him. Essentially when enraged, Savage was far more powerful than him, so we can hardly claim when not, the opposite would be true, especially when Savage has advanced since then.

Let's not start changing the goalposts either, the claim made was that Dooku could ragdoll/KO Savage with his powers a la Kenobi, not just hurl him.

And I'm well aware of his growth in the Force, but Dooku would've likely had a growth as well given his own substantial potential in the Force, albeit it not as noticeably as Opress.