Originally posted by NephthysLmao, Plagueis is 1,000 years above Bane. He doesn't compare in any capacity.
I don't necessarily have all of them above Plagueis, but all of them are arguable in some capacity. Except Valkorion, that was my bad on mis-labelling him.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZAnd it isn't Vitiate. 🙂
And there's only one Sith Lord above Plagueis, sorry. 🙂
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZAnyway looked into this and it happens before, quite a bit before actually. In 52 BBY in fact.
Also, when does Sidious say they're both a match for any individual in the order? Before or after Plagueis became far more powerful? 🙂
I can't help by question Sheev's accuracy therefore as 30 years later Sidious is struggling against Yoda. I also think given that in that fight Sidious goes from being confident in his superiority to attempting to flee as an indicator he underestimated him.
On the other hand, Yoda's spiritual journey might have made him stronger. mmm
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZPlagueis thinks otherwise, I believe him. 🙂
Vitiate ain't an Sith. If you consider him such, then Plagueis is third. SIMPLE. MULTIPLICATION. 🙂
He achieved this state of being by consuming a planet friend, which could only give him one thing. Power.
He states he no longer needs vessels, and has become liberated and immortal, you can't achieve that by changing your philosophical perspective lol. You have to become sufficiently powerful.
Honestly it's being made pretty obvious here that Valkorion has achieved a level of power that has given him both new abilities and a new perspective on the universe, and that's reflected in his much improved feats.
So yeah his state of being has changed, in the Force lmao.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
When by his own omission he was past his physical peak, out of practice and against an opponent far more experienced
The circumstances in this case do somewhat lessen the accomplishment, but they don't even begin to refute what actually took place. That being said, Kenobi's feats against Grevious, the Nightbrothers and Anakin speak for themselves. How much two years could have done to mitigate those performances can be cast aside. The Force makes up the difference. As seen when Revan is freed from 4 years torture or when Maul is restored from a decades reclusion. Unless Kenobi is suffering from some sever motor-neuron disease, the difference could well be negligible.
on desert terrain?
The fact that Krayt is so comfortable in a harsh environment only makes him all the more special. World class runners in Kenya tend to train on high mountains where Oxygen is thinner, they do this as children. In practice, they become more effective runners for any environment, because their heart, lungs, and muscles can more effectively use oxygen. The same can only logically apply to Krayt, unless what... you think he somehow gets a boon fighting in extreme temperatures with no moisture and high air-pressure? No son. He's more use to the desert than Kenobi, which insinuates superior physicality. This is an advantage he carries in any fight.
Aside from the fact that Plagueis would blitz
Blitz who? Hett? Laughable. Kenobi? Even more laughable. Plagueis has only been seen in one lightsaber battle and there certainly was no "blitzing" involved. I hope you can justify such a gap in speed, because it's not happening otherwise.
in that situation, I'm not seeing what it has on defeating a late-generation Banite Sith Lord
And you assume this means Venamis is a more talented lightsaber master than Kenobi? I'm going to refute the assumptions of this logic before you take it beyond it's limits. There is no reason for Venamis to be better than Kenobi, Bane or anyone in particular. It is illogical to assume his raw power is stronger than their's, as to assume he's received anything other than rudimentary dark-side knowledge, or training outside of one specific task - killing Plagueis. Technically, he can not be a 'rule-of-two' sith, because his very existence breaks the formula of two, making him just someone who might have joined the ranks... but didn't. He was killed before reaching the status of "a late-generation Banite Sith Lord" and of course, Plagueis didn't see him fit as an apprentice either. There is no possible way to scale Venamis without making the worst case of circular logic that has ever existed on these boards. And if you want him to be better than Kenobi, you have to prove that's the case.
who was an ambidextrous master of multiple forms Made expert in Plagueis' fighting style.
Oh my! Multiple forms with both hands you say?! Kam Soulsar would be proud. But none of that is particularly relevant. Bare in mind, all of this made him the more 'technically skilled' fighter allowing him to clip Plagueis' shoulder. And he only lost to Plagueis because of the latter's powerful Force connection, As Kasim would saY going beyond forms. And we see that in the Novel, given the out-of-body experience Plagueis describes.
And that was over 30 years before his prime, where he experienced an artificial increment to his power
The transformation Krayt underwent was far more radical than anything Plagueis could have augmented himself with. And so far, contending with Kenobi as starting point, is better than beating a featless-something, who may or may not be stronger than Darth Bandon's sith Barbour (credit to Gideon).
And Plagueis possessing the equivalent of a 1,000 years of advancement in Sith combat techniques (if Sidious' abilities are anything to go by including seven styles mastery, ambidextrous dueling ability and various exotic martial skills) > 100 years or so combat experience
Where is this one-thousand years advancement in martial arts? Do you actually think the knowledge inherited, possibly amended, would have such a large focus on sabers? Let me correct that mistaken notion. Both Plagueis and Palaptine view lightsbaer-combat with disdain. Sheev going as far as to call it "Jedi Dueling games" and only keeping it in reserve to "humiliate the Jedi", and it's pretty clear that they're not using 'exclusive' forms given Hego's observation Niman in Maul. Plagueis can not possibly hope to stand-up to someone who's at least matching him in raw-power, and has vastly more combat experience and time to refine his skills.
against opponents of unknown prowess
Cue Darth Venamis 😂
First of all though resistant to most Force attacks, the Vong appear to be in general vulnerable to Force lightning,
Well I imagine they're vulnerable to Krayt's lighting, seen as they died from a single blast ;-) But if you've read New Jedi Order Traitor, you'll see some elaboration on the matter. Apparently, they are just as resistant to lightning. This is seen when Jacen couldn't channel sparked bolts through Vong-bodies, describing them as "poor conductors", yet Krayt can kill them outright - while having his Force connection diminished. In fact a few parallels can be made between Krayt and Jacen, all favoring the latter immensely. This is a feat war you will loose.
And with a "tangle" of lightning seemingly reduced a man's bones to dust, I'd say he'd manage that with culpable ease.
Do you even know what a metaphor is, Beni? Right here you have a linguistic expression that isn't representing the real state of affairs as it is described, which is made clear by the context.
" as a tangle of blue electricity that hissed from his tapered fingers, catching Wandau full-on and lifting him to the ceiling of the hold before dropping him to the puddled deck in a heap, as if his bones had turned to dust." - Taken from Darth Plagueis
Plagueis does not in fact reduce a man's bone to "dust", all he does is kill a person with lightning, and drop him in a heap, "as if his bones turned to dust. Which happens when you're manhandling a lifeless corpse. And more importantly, how can you disintegrate someones bones, but not their flesh, muscle and skin? So essentially, all Plagueis did was kill yet another, non Force sensitive being.
feats are again over 30 years before his prime.
They are also 30 years too underwhelming, while comparing him to a diminished Vong-krayt, just over 100 years from his prime.
Holistically speaking Plagueis was the penultimate Sith in the Rule of Two, who have been steadily growing more powerful with each generation since Bane (who is ashing people and creatures with his lightning, and reducing squads of soldiers to pulp with his TK),
I find it the appeal 'holistic thinking' rather amusing while at the same time applying the 'feat wars' logic from Darth-Bane. That is fine of course, but here is the spanner - There is not a single reason why Hego should be better than his bygone predecessor in the most rudimentary categories - such as TK. The steady 'power increase' refers to a multitude of areas. Their knowledge of the Darkside being one, but so is their political and economic standing within the Galaxy. When Tenebrous was searching for a Sith apprentice ,he manipulated a powerful InterGalactic Bank agent named Caar Damask into meeting his future wife, knowing that if they had a child, their offspring would be strong in the Force. And of course, Sheev's ascension from an untarnished ambassador to supreme ruler of the Galaxy, does for-fill the 'power' scale prophesied by Bane.
alongside Sidious caused unprecedented imbalance in the Force, and was regarded by Luceno as capable of defeating Sheev in lightsaber combat.
Bring me this quote, it's date, it's source and then we will discuss the point further.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Bring me this quote, it's date, it's source and then we will discuss the point further. [/B]
His feats in the Legacy:War already put him in the top tier but I've always thought the powerscaling he benefited from in FOTJ: Apocalypse makes him possibly the strongest Sith ever. He was depicted as Luke Skywalker's equal(if not outright superior) in their fight against Abeloth.
FOTJ is a book obsessed with balance and parallels.
Light and Dark
Jedi and Sith
Daughter and Son
Ben and Vestara
Luke and Krayt
All of these share a whole equal and opposite yin/yang thing.
And as you noted above, in Apocalypse Jacen is depicted as a sort of Sith-lite, and Krayt as the real deal. More powerful, darker, and with Abeloth gone, the imminent threat to the galaxy. There's also the whole Dark Man on the Throne of Balance thing, though I don't know what to make of that.
Originally posted by Unbowed
The Luceno quote is real, it's from an interview around the time the book was released. I believe the exact quote was along the lines of "they are pretty evenly matched but Plagueis would find some way to subvert his apprentice".
Beni. If this is the case, do you want to point out what part of this quote states he was capable of defeating Sheev in lightsaber combat? 🙄
So far I'm seeing a case based on lies, and the literal interpretation of metaphoric statements.
For crying out loud, he doesn't say Plagueis is better than Palpatine in lightsaber combat.
Someone asked him what would happen if Palpatine confronted Plagueis traditionally, and Luceno said that Plagueis could probably find a way to undermine his apprentice had it come down to a duel. Duel, in this case, is not necessarily synonymous with "lightsaber fight".
An bible timing. Anyway here is the quote and source:
Q: Do you feel that had it come to a contest of lightsabers or Force powers that Sidious would have prevailed anyway?
Luceno: If it had come to a duel, I think Plagueis may have found a way to undermine his apprentice.
http://www.eucantina.net/archives/11656
Duel referring to lightsaber combat, or at least something that involves it, and undermine implying victory, through whatever means. Therefore I'm pretty sure I'm being accurate in saying that Luceno thinks Plagueis could defeat Palpatine in lightsaber combat, though not necessarily because he is the better duelist.