Darth Krayt vs. Darth Plagueis

and was regarded by Luceno as capable of defeating Sheev in lightsaber combat.

So you lied. 🙂

Lol how

Undermining someone in a Duel is not the same as defeating someone in Lightsaber combat.

So you believe that Luceno didn't mean that Plagueis would win?

Winning a duel is not the same as being a better duelist.

No it's not, clever girl. Now point me to the part where I said Plagueis is a better duelist. 😬

and was regarded by Luceno as capable of defeating Sheev in lightsaber combat.

You suggested Luceno's quote was entirely to do with Lightsaber Combat. It was not.

Right, now I see what your saying. Well OK, but the point I was making is that Plagueis can contend with Sidious as a combatant, to the point of being able to potentially defeat him, not that he is a better duelist. So the argument stands.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
An bible timing. Anyway here is the quote and source:

Q: Do you feel that had it come to a contest of lightsabers or Force powers that Sidious would have prevailed anyway?

Luceno: If it had come to a duel, I think Plagueis may have found a way to undermine his apprentice.

http://www.eucantina.net/archives/11656

Duel referring to lightsaber combat, or at least something that involves it, and undermine implying victory, through whatever means. Therefore I'm pretty sure I'm being accurate in saying that Luceno thinks Plagueis could defeat Palpatine in lightsaber combat, though not necessarily because he is the better duelist.

You sorta did lie here, or rather that you misunderstood the implications of the word 'duel'. Now, had he made it specific to 'lightsaber duelling' there wouldn't be any dispute. But as it stands, the word 'duel' can both definitively and historically be used to describe an all-out fight between the two. Just as you can have a duel of Swords, you can have a duel of Force powers.

Lesson of the day - the rest of the world do not use the same abbreviations as us.

Lying implies the intention to deceive, which I did not have.

Regardless you make a fair point regarding the wording, frankly though a holistic engagement is more beneficial to my case. So that's fine. 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling Regardless you make a fair point regarding the wording, frankly though a holistic engagement is more beneficial to my case. So that's fine. 🙂

I don't think so Beni, and it's not only an issue of misinterpretations in literature and what that does to affect one's credibility, but it's also a case of relevance. Luceno thinks that Plagueis could duke Sidious, but in what manner he does so is left for the reader to decide. Plagueis is probably more impressive when it comes to Force powers, while Sidious is left a bit undernourished in that area. But in the lightsaber department, Sheev has the upper-hand, having trained Maul while demonstrating a clear edge over the latter. At that point Hego was in 'monk-mode' developing his Midi-Chlorion machinations. So it would be even more impressive, and surprising if Luceno thought Plagueis could defeat his apprentice in a Lightsaber duel alone, rather than an all-out fight. Krayt is still more impressive than either.

I'd say its pretty relevant friend, if Plagueis is capable of defeating Sidious in a duel through any means, he'd have to be capable of contending with him holistically. Which is much better feat than a vague comparison to Luke as far as combat effectiveness is concerned. 👆

Speaking of which, I'd like to see this quote. Make sure your not lying. 🙂

*you're 🙂

Come on Sel, that's like Beni's trademark.

✅

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'd say its pretty relevant friend, if Plagueis is capable of defeating Sidious in a duel through any means, he'd have to be capable of contending with him holistically. Which is much better feat than a vague comparison to Luke as far as combat effectiveness is concerned. 👆

Holistic analysis does not differentiate between innate power in the Force and combat effectiveness, Beni. 'Holistics' are simply concerned with wholes or complete systems rather than the analysis of, treatment of, or dissection into parts. That's why if an excerpt claims Sheev is the 'most powerful' sith lord in modern times, we can holistically determine a fight's outcome between him and his apprentices. For the same reason, we can assume that Apocalypse!Krayt can contend with or, at least bring harm to Luke, because he's Luke's Dark counterpart on the Throne of balance.

For Krayt and Plagueis, are you trying to tell me how possibly being able to defeat TPM!Sidious, is better than Krayt's comparison to Luke nearly a century from his prime? Luke as the 'realized' potential of his father or 'double' of what a more mature Sidious is? Quite clearly there is no holistic argument, no accolade, that will dig you out from this enormous caveat. You can forget about that.

So please continue telling me why killing random non-force sensitive assassins sways this in favour of Hego.

That's nice dear, still waiting for the proof that Krayt compares to Luke.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The circumstances in this case do somewhat lessen the accomplishment, but they don't even begin to refute what actually took place. That being said, Kenobi's feats against Grevious, the Nightbrothers and Anakin speak for themselves. How much two years could have done to mitigate those performances can be cast aside. The Force makes up the difference. As seen when Revan is freed from 4 years torture or when Maul is restored from a decades reclusion. Unless Kenobi is suffering from some sever motor-neuron disease, the difference could well be negligible.

The fact that Krayt is so comfortable in a harsh environment only makes him all the more special. World class runners in Kenya tend to train on high mountains where Oxygen is thinner, they do this as children. In practice, they become more effective runners for any environment, because their heart, lungs, and muscles can more effectively use oxygen. The same can only logically apply to Krayt, unless what... you think he somehow gets a boon fighting in extreme temperatures with no moisture and high air-pressure? No son. He's more use to the desert than Kenobi, which insinuates superior physicality. This is an advantage he carries in any fight.

In fact that novel description makes it explicit as a cause for his difficulty:

Source: The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi

Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat.

Blitz who? Hett? Laughable. Kenobi? Even more laughable. Plagueis has only been seen in one lightsaber battle and there certainly was no "blitzing" involved. I hope you can justify such a gap in speed, because it's not happening otherwise.

And you assume this means Venamis is a more talented lightsaber master than Kenobi? I'm going to refute the assumptions of this logic before you take it beyond it's limits. There is no reason for Venamis to be better than Kenobi, Bane or anyone in particular. It is illogical to assume his raw power is stronger than their's, as to assume he's received anything other than rudimentary dark-side knowledge, or training outside of one specific task - killing Plagueis. Technically, he can not be a 'rule-of-two' sith, because his very existence breaks the formula of two, making him just someone who might have joined the ranks... but didn't. He was killed before reaching the status of "a late-generation Banite Sith Lord" and of course, Plagueis didn't see him fit as an apprentice either. There is no possible way to scale Venamis without making the worst case of circular logic that has ever existed on these boards. And if you want him to be better than Kenobi, you have to prove that's the case.

Regardless, to address your concerns. 🙂

First of all, considering that Venamis expressed serious doubts as to the suitability of Plagueis as his apprentice, and instructed Venamis to eliminate him as an act that would confer him the "Darth" title (in fact Venamis was already looking for an apprentice of his own), I would say its quite obvious that Venamis was more than tool, and instead a legitimate contender to replace Plagueis as his successor. He would have therefore taken his training very seriously. And while no, we cannot assume that Venamis would have been instructed in Banite teachings outside of those relevant to beating Plagueis, that only makes such potential gaps in his knowledge irrelevant by default; both to his ability to challenge Plagueis as a combatant, and the discussion of combative prowess we are having.

On the other hand, the fact that Venamis was capable of concealing his dark side presence from Plagueis, whom consequently praises him as being "well trained"; the fact that he was a master of multiple forms which he could switch between effortlessly and ambidextrously; and the fact that he was able to perform Force flight in-situ to combat Plagueis while hovering in mid air, demonstrates his training in that regard was anything but rudimentary.

Instead we should assume it was highly advanced; and if Tenebrous intended for Venamis to succeed in this task, full use of what the Banite line had to offer in that regard (that's 1,000 years of intensive advancement in the Force and lightsaber arts) would have put to use, imparted to Venamis by one of Bane's most experienced and powerful successors. We can also assume that Venamis was trained at the hands of Tenebrous for potentially decades, given this is the time around which Plagueis notes they'd reached an impasse, prompting Tenebrous to explore different options from a pool of candidates he was on constant look out for:

Taken from Darth Plagueis

That Tenebrous had targeted him came as no shock to Plagueis. He and the Bith had reached an impasse decades earlier regarding execution of the Sith imperative.

[...]

He had assumed that, given time, he would have been able to win Tenebrous over, but his former Master had obviously pronounced him unfit to don the mantle of Sith successor, and had looked elsewhere. The unbridled desires of sentients were a blessing to the Sith, for those desires birthed an abundance of zealous and audacious beings who could be used to further the cause. Plagueis had been instructed to be on the lookout for suitable beings, just as Tenebrous had been when he had discovered Venamis.

So yes, considering the millenium's worth of generations between Bane and Tenebrous, Venamis possessing both the potential and the training (as far as it applied to combat) to take up a legitimate position in the Banite line should make him in overall combative talent at least appreciable, if not better than the Rule of Two's 1st generation of Lords. More than Kenobi can claim. Saddle such an individual up with rigorous expertise in your opponents form (as opposed to a terrain disadvantage) then yes, you have Plagueis defeating a far deadlier opponent than the one Hett faced in Obi-Wan, many decades before his eventual prime.

Oh my! Multiple forms with both hands you say?! Kam Soulsar would be proud. But none of that is particularly relevant. Bare in mind, all of this made him the more 'technically skilled' fighter allowing him to clip Plagueis' shoulder. And he only lost to Plagueis because of the latter's powerful Force connection, As Kasim would saY going beyond forms. And we see that in the Novel, given the out-of-body experience Plagueis describes.

Moving on, I'd disagree with that assessment. First of all though Tenebrous did indeed manage to penetrate the Plagueis' defenses, Hego nonetheless manages to force a stalemate, to the point at which he observes that "the fight could go on indefinitely" - but by your logic Plagueis should have been at the very least on the back foot throughout, and yet he was not. The more likely explanation for Venamis penetrating his defenses therefore was that he was caught off-guard by his opponents offensive style, indeed as Plagueis describes it, it was "unexpected."

Secondly I'm not seeing on what basis you've concluded he beat him by abusing his Force power, rather than through saber mastery. If that had been the case we'd expect, much it happened in Bane's duel against Kas'im, Venamis to be rapidly driven back by an overpowering offense. And yet that is not what happens, rather Plagueis goes on the defensive, his 'out-of-body experience' were he works himself "like a marionette" merely being, from my perspective, a description of Plagueis extricating himself from the immediacy of the fight, and approaching it from a more removed, calculating perspective. In which he calculates Venamis' defeat. 🙂

The way he seemingly with ease parries Venamis' every lunge and strike, an undeniable testament to his adroit talent as a duelist as much as his ability in the Force.

The transformation Krayt underwent was far more radical than anything Plagueis could have augmented himself with. And so far, contending with Kenobi as starting point, is better than beating a featless-something, who may or may not be stronger than Darth Bandon's sith Barbour (credit to Gideon).

The key difference being that while Hett was beaten, the reverse was true for Plagueis, who soundly defeated him opponent.

Where is this one-thousand years advancement in martial arts? Do you actually think the knowledge inherited, possibly amended, would have such a large focus on sabers? Let me correct that mistaken notion. Both Plagueis and Palaptine view lightsbaer-combat with disdain. Sheev going as far as to call it "Jedi Dueling games" and only keeping it in reserve to "humiliate the Jedi", and it's pretty clear that they're not using 'exclusive' forms given Hego's observation Niman in Maul. Plagueis can not possibly hope to stand-up to someone who's at least matching him in raw-power, and has vastly more combat experience and time to refine his skills.

More importantly however you are assuming that disdain led to negligence, whereas there is no evidence that this is the case. On the contrary, in the same sentence that Plagueis is noted to regard lightsaber combat with disdain, he is proclaimed a "master of the art." And Sidious' haughty regard for "Jedi duelling games" didn't stop him from producing of the most highly skilled and effectively trained Sith in history, to which he imparted numerous "exotic and forbidden martial arts", all of which he must have himself being expert in; himself mastering all seven forms of lightsaber combat and going on to contend with two of the greatest swordsmasters the Jedi Order ever produced.

It being stated in the RotS novelisation that, as I've previously referenced:

Taken from Revenge of the Sith novelisation

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into [b]every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.[/b]

Altogether the case for them neglecting to advance their skills in this field because they were somehow unimportant is weak one, and if anything their haughty attitude suggests confidence, indeed in their ability to "humiliate" the Jedi if it ever came down to it.

Cue Darth Venamis 😂

Well I imagine they're vulnerable to Krayt's lighting, seen as they died from a single blast ;-) But if you've read New Jedi Order Traitor, you'll see some elaboration on the matter. Apparently, they are just as resistant to lightning. This is seen when Jacen couldn't channel sparked bolts through Vong-bodies, describing them as "poor conductors", yet Krayt can kill them outright - while having his Force connection diminished. In fact a few parallels can be made between Krayt and Jacen, all favoring the latter immensely. This is a feat war you will loose.

So it's not actually proof that Vong are naturally resistant to Force lightning, if struck by it, only that it's difficult to strike them in the first place. And whether it be because, due to his inexperience, Jacen was simply inept, or simply because others authors had no interest in following this little rule, the Vong are frequently struck and killed by lightning in other sources.

Jaina Solo for example takes out Vong with her lightning on three seperate occasions

Taken from The New Jedi Order: Dark Journey

Then Jaina caught a glimpse of the memory that most disturbed Zekk-an image of a small, disheveled young woman in a tattered jumpsuit, hurling lightning at a Yuuzhan Vong warrior. A moment passed before Jaina recognized the furious, vengeful, bloodstained face as her own.

Taken from The New Jedi Order: Dark Journey

They raced through the halls and into the royal apartments. Guards moved to stop them; Force lightning caught them and threw them aside.

Taken from The New Jedi Order: Dark Journey

In a motion so fast Jaina barely saw it, the warrior sat up and flicked his coufee at her throat. She could have dodged or blocked with her lightsaber, but she did not. Instead, with the fierce energy crackling inside her, she used her free hand to bat the weapon aside, then raised her hand toward her attacker and released the dark power inside. A fork of lightning crackled into existence a few centimeters beyond her glove tips, then blasted a hole through the Yuuzhan Vong's chest and hurled him onto the rubble pile smoking and motionless.

So yes, I think that again someone who rivals Darth Sidious in dark side power, who could boil blood and gloop insides with a mere fraction of his strength, and who is far greater than someone who can ash beings with his lightning, would dispatch a few Vong with culpable ease. 👆

Do you even know what a metaphor is, Beni? Right here you have a linguistic expression that isn't representing the real state of affairs as it is described, which is made clear by the context.

"as a tangle of blue electricity that hissed from his tapered fingers, catching Wandau full-on and lifting him to the ceiling of the hold before dropping him to the puddled deck in a heap, as if his bones had turned to dust." - Taken from Darth Plagueis

Plagueis does not in fact reduce a man's bone to "dust", all he does is kill a person with lightning, and drop him in a heap, "as if his bones turned to dust. Which happens when you're manhandling a lifeless corpse. And more importantly, how can you disintegrate someones bones, but not their flesh, muscle and skin? So essentially, all Plagueis did was kill yet another, non Force sensitive being.

I am paraphrasing what the passage said, that Plagueis "appeared" to reduced a man's bones to dust. Evidently this was not what happened, however seeing as a corpse is merely limp and not boneless I'm inclined to believe he did more than just kill him, and rather (especially considering what a mere trickle did to the Ikotichi) left his insides rather jellied.

But of course, you appear to have omitted to address the feat were he almost sets alight that poor woman.

They are also 30 years too underwhelming, while comparing him to a diminished Vong-krayt, just over 100 years from his prime.

I find it the appeal 'holistic thinking' rather amusing while at the same time applying the 'feat wars' logic from Darth-Bane. That is fine of course, but here is the spanner - There is not a single reason why Hego should be better than his bygone predecessor in the most rudimentary categories - such as TK. The steady 'power increase' refers to a multitude of areas. Their knowledge of the Darkside being one, but so is their political and economic standing within the Galaxy. When Tenebrous was searching for a Sith apprentice ,he manipulated a powerful InterGalactic Bank agent named Caar Damask into meeting his future wife, knowing that if they had a child, their offspring would be strong in the Force. And of course, Sheev's ascension from an untarnished ambassador to supreme ruler of the Galaxy, does for-fill the 'power' scale prophesied by Bane.

Unfortunately that tactic doesn't quite function when the source material explicitly refers to power in the Force:

Taken from Episode I: The Phantom Menance Scrapbook

For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.