Jensaarai1 has some pretty good videos on you tube.
I'm a fan of his work .The man has some very interesting theories.
Now what sucks was the dueling in The Force Awakens.
In my opinion the whole movie sucked.
Kylo Ren is no bad ass in my opinion,a cry baby,a spoiled snot nosed kid throwing a child sized
temper tandrum about Vader.
I tried to watch the movie with excitement and enthusiasm but couldn't get into it.
And the dueling? I rather watch AOTC and SWTCW. Even ROTS had better dueling.
What yall fail to realise is not all the Light Saber Combat in the mythos revolves around fencing.
There is some Kenjutsu,Kendo,as well as fencing in it.
the acrobatics could be based off Wushu and Wushu swordplay.
Im not trying to start an agrument,I'm just trying to show you something different.
Yes Makashi is probably all fencing with a little italian and french fencing in there somewhere,
Ataru could be mixed with Wushu,who knows.
All I'm saying is 1-6 is a whole lot better than The Force Awakens.
I'm willing to bet Rogue One will be better than TFA.
That's why Legends Jedi all have different truths on how to use the Force and lightsaber combat.
Each Jedi ,Sith , Dark Sider , Light Sider is different.Their approach,their style,everything.
Change is good and the EU and SW need to evolve but if its anything like TFA,I'll pass and
stay true to the real deal which is Legends.
And for the record Kylo Ren is weak. That whole dueling sequence was weak.
Originally posted by juyomaster34
Jensaarai1 has some pretty good videos on you tube.
I'm a fan of his work .The man has some very interesting theories.Now what sucks was the dueling in The Force Awakens.
In my opinion the whole movie sucked.
Kylo Ren is no bad ass in my opinion,a cry baby,a spoiled snot nosed kid throwing a child sized
temper tandrum about Vader.I tried to watch the movie with excitement and enthusiasm but couldn't get into it.
And the dueling? I rather watch AOTC and SWTCW. Even ROTS had better dueling.
What yall fail to realise is not all the Light Saber Combat in the mythos revolves around fencing.There is some Kenjutsu,Kendo,as well as fencing in it.
the acrobatics could be based off Wushu and Wushu swordplay.Im not trying to start an agrument,I'm just trying to show you something different.
Yes Makashi is probably all fencing with a little italian and french fencing in there somewhere,
Ataru could be mixed with Wushu,who knows.All I'm saying is 1-6 is a whole lot better than The Force Awakens.
I'm willing to bet Rogue One will be better than TFA.That's why Legends Jedi all have different truths on how to use the Force and lightsaber combat.
Each Jedi ,Sith , Dark Sider , Light Sider is different.Their approach,their style,everything.Change is good and the EU and SW need to evolve but if its anything like TFA,I'll pass and
stay true to the real deal which is Legends.
And for the record Kylo Ren is weak. That whole dueling sequence was weak.
I really hope that you're not trying to claim the lightsaber styles are based around realistic styles. They're not. Their may be some real world "inspiration" but trust me when I claim no one would fight like that. 😉 You can't base how good a character is at fighting by the choreography or how "applicable" it is because if that's the case they all suck.
No just that some were inspired by the Arts.
I'm not going to say they all sucked just TFA.
The moves choreographed were flashy and looked good for the camera.
And yes there was some twirling,
And no nobody fights like that. If so then good for you.
All Im saying is there was inspiration in the prequels where TFA had none.
We all have opinions and I personally don't think they suck.
They could have been better,sometimes you have to work with what you have.
Mr. Lucus gave us a vision on what it would look like and how they would fight.
And for that I say thank you George Lucas for your gift and your vision.
Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
I really hope that you're not trying to claim the lightsaber styles are based around realistic styles. They're not. Their may be some real world "inspiration" but trust me when I claim no one would fight like that. 😉 You can't base how good a character is at fighting by the choreography or how "applicable" it is because if that's the case they all suck.
And that, right there, is why Jensaarai1 is a genius. He points out, correctly, that no real-life swordsmen would use the kind of moves we see in the movies. He then points out that those moves aren't meant for duelling or fencing (fencing as a general term for sword-fighting, not the sport). Those moves are meant to either bat away blaster bolts or mow down a bunch of people in one swing (which can't be done with a regular sword).
Put simply, Jedi aren't trained like regular swordsmen. They use different moves meant for a completely different purpose.
Originally posted by quanchi112
This jensaarai fella is mentioned again. Who is this internet sensation ?
Here is a link:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm7imB9QanTySN-Lfae0SIQ
You'll love these videos. They're amazing.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I Rarely do we agree with him.
Is that the royal "we" is it? I agree with him all the time.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
These statements are where exactly? Plus not really, if they couldn't duel, then Maul would have just destroyed Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan where they stood, both together and separately.If they couldn't duel, then there wouldn't be so many lightsaber fights throughout the movies and all of TCW and Rebels, so on and so forth.
Nope. Both the fight against Maul and the various lightsabre fights all show that the Jedi can improvise and adapt the lightsabre styles they do know for a purpose they weren't originally meant for.
If they had trained specifically for duelling then they wouldn't have fared so poorly against Maul, both together and separately. Plus there are other factors, such as the Force guiding them.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Then you also have Nick Gillard saying, that Force Users learned every single way to swing a blade and mix it into their own custom fighting styles(Lightsaber Forms).
Nick Gillard also said that "no move is wasted. Everything is there for a purpose" Now watch the ROTS Anakin/Kenobi fight and tell me there isn't a boatload of wasted, zero purpose moves there.
Plus, I don't give a fudgebucket what some twonk "says" when the actual facts show otherwise.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
If they couldn't duel, then there wouldn't be exact fighting forms for...you know DUELING..
Did you even watch the video?
Jensaarai1 himself points out that only two forms were focused specifically on actual duelling and most Jedi didn't use them because they focused on deflecting blaster bolts.
Yes there were "exact fighting forms for...you know DUELING." Doesn't mean they were actually learned or used by the majority.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
And that, right there, is why Jensaarai1 is a genius. He points out, correctly, that no real-life swordsmen would use the kind of moves we see in the movies. He then points out that those moves aren't meant for duelling or fencing (fencing as a general term for sword-fighting, not the sport). Those moves are meant to either bat away blaster bolts or mow down a bunch of people in one swing (which can't be done with a regular sword).Put simply, Jedi aren't trained like regular swordsmen. They use different moves meant for a completely different purpose.
This is the flaw of your argument. The moves you see in SWTOR? You wouldn't use in real swordsmanship either. You wouldn't use the moves, if lightsabers were real, you see in the comics or elsewhere either. Lightsaber combat would look nothing like real fighting nor how it does in the movies. The reason it's designed the way it is in the movies is simply because "it looks neat." the moves you see in the movies you wouldn't use even to deflect blaster bolts. Do I need to show you cut scenes in SWTOR where your characters spin? It doesn't matter if lightsabers can cut through multiple people. You would never ever spin in a real fight.
Here is a link:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm7imB9QanTySN-Lfae0SIQ
You'll love these videos. They're amazing.
Hardly. Jensaraai has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to Star Wars and he has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to real life swordplay. While Quan and I don't see eye to eye I think even he would find it questionable to compare choreography to what is happening in universe. It would be akin to me looking at the choreographed hand to hand fighting of kirk and claiming that people in Star Trek are terrible at fighting with their fists because it would be stupid for opponents to fight in the manner that they're doing. Except it's a t.v. series so that doesn't apply.
Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
This is the flaw of your argument. The moves you see in SWTOR? You wouldn't use in real swordsmanship either. You wouldn't use the moves, if lightsabers were real, you see in the comics or elsewhere either. Lightsaber combat would look nothing like real fighting nor how it does in the movies. The reason it's designed the way it is in the movies is simply because "it looks neat."
That's exactly what Jensarai1 says! Watch the video and see for yourself. It's only five minutes long.
Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
Hardly. Jensaraai has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to Star Wars and he has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to real life swordplay.
Jensaarai1 knows and understands far more about Star Wars than anyone on this board. When I want inspiration for my writing I look to his work far more than I look here.
I'm not qualified to talk about real life swordplay but to me at least he really seems like someone who's done his research.
Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
While Quan and I don't see eye to eye I think even he would find it questionable to compare choreography to what is happening in universe. It would be akin to me looking at the choreographed hand to hand fighting of kirk and claiming that people in Star Trek are terrible at fighting with their fists because it would be stupid for opponents to fight in the manner that they're doing. Except it's a t.v. series so that doesn't apply.
If you watch his videos he does an excellent job of separating "stage fighting" from stuff that can feasibly be analysed. For example he acknowledges that Yoda's duel with Dooku in AOTC is nothing but stage fencing, but still gives a solid breakdown of Yoda's style and skills in his "Yoda vs. Malak" video.
BTW, still waiting for Zenwolf to woman up and admit their mistake.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
That's exactly what Jensarai1 says! Watch the video and see for yourself. It's only five minutes long.Jensaarai1 knows and understands far more about Star Wars than anyone on this board. When I want inspiration for my writing I look to his work far more than I look here.
I'm not qualified to talk about real life swordplay but to me at least he really seems like someone who's done his research.
If you watch his videos he does an excellent job of separating "stage fighting" from stuff that can feasibly be analysed. For example he acknowledges that Yoda's duel with Dooku in AOTC is nothing but stage fencing, but still gives a solid breakdown of Yoda's style and skills in his "Yoda vs. Malak" video.
BTW, still waiting for Zenwolf to woman up and admit their mistake.
My posts went over your head so allow me to explain (I'm not being condescending I legitimately feel you didn't get my post.) I've watched his videos and I know what he's saying. Here's the problem. This is the case for nearly any movie out there. Whether it's lord of the rings, robin hood, it doesn't matter. I also pointed out the duels you see in cut scenes in Star Wars the old republic? From a real life swordplay stance? It's also laughably bad. The trailers? Also bad. Going by his logic? Jedi/Sith are terrible duelists regardless of era.
Second, no one would make cuts with a lightsaber if they were real from a competitive standpoint. I can comment on swordplay. Why? I've been doing it for nearly twenty years now. I would not make any kind of cutting motion with a lightsaber because it's terrible economy of movement. Economy of movement is important when utilizing any kind of weapon. You want to make the least movements possible that still allow you to deliver maximum damage. A lightsaber merely needs to touch someone in order to kill them. Any kind of "large swing" is pointless. Dooku's style would be the most practical and even then it's competitively terrible.
You can't base the performance of the styles on real life swordplay for this reason. When I was younger I hated any movie that had any kind of swordplay due to my knowledge on how a sword is actually used. Over time I had to accept that sometimes movies have to make concessions. Simply because people don't want to watch fights that are over in a few seconds and don't have any cool "flashiness" to them.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Mistake for what? All I was saying is that they aren't weak duelists.
The mistake I was referring to was this bit here:
Originally posted by Zenwolf
If they couldn't duel, then there wouldn't be exact fighting forms for...you know DUELING..
Why is this a mistake? Because Jensaarai1 himself specifically pointed out that there ARE duelling focused styles. His point was that out of 7 Forms only 2 are designed specifically for duelling so statistically most Jedi won't be trained in them or at least won't use them (again, watch the video. I'm sure you can spare 5 minutes).
Plus there's simple logistics. By the PT era the Sith were thought to be extinct, there's at most a handful of Dark Jedi at any time and there's thousands of Jedi. There is no need for the majority of them to be great duellists since most of them would go through their entire careers without engaging in a life-or-death duel. I refer you to the TPM visual dictionary:
"Since lightsabres are seldom handled by non-Jedi, the order primarily uses them as defence against blaster bolts rather than other lightsabres."
Also, yes they are clearly weak duellists, seeing as Asajj, Grievous, Aurra Sing etc. are able to rack up such enormous Jedi kill counts. If every single Jedi was some uber-great duellist, then why do so many get beaten?
Originally posted by chilled monkey
The mistake I was referring to was this bit here:Why is this a mistake? Because Jensaarai1 himself specifically pointed out that there ARE duelling focused styles. His point was that out of 7 Forms only 2 are designed specifically for duelling so statistically most Jedi won't be trained in them or at least won't use them (again, watch the video. I'm sure you can spare 5 minutes).
Plus there's simple logistics. By the PT era the Sith were thought to be extinct, there's at most a handful of Dark Jedi at any time and there's thousands of Jedi. There is no need for the majority of them to be great duellists since most of them would go through their entire careers without engaging in a life-or-death duel. I refer you to the TPM visual dictionary:
"Since lightsabres are seldom handled by non-Jedi, the order primarily uses them as defence against blaster bolts rather than other lightsabres."
Also, yes they are clearly weak duellists, seeing as Asajj, Grievous, Aurra Sing etc. are able to rack up such enormous Jedi kill counts. If every single Jedi was some uber-great duellist, then why do so many get beaten?
Except that Ventress and Sing were once Jedi and trained as Jedi, Grevious was also trained in the Jedi arts. So....of course they'd be able to get kills.
I never said every single Jedi were uber great duelists, just that they aren't weak duelists. I'm using the term weak as if suggesting, that they wouldn't be able to defend themselves or attack.
Yet logically by training seeing as they train through all lightsaber forms, they would be able to do that much. Which the fact that the Jedi hadn't encountered a Sith up until Maul, shows.
Because if Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were weak duelists...then Qui-Gon should have died on Tatooine right? And Obi-Wan wouldn't have been able to destroy Maul's weapon, much less keep up with him via his rage.
So again...not saying every Jedi are uber duelists, but they aren't weak either otherwise what would be the point of even using a lightsaber as their main weapon?
Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
My posts went over your head so allow me to explain (I'm not being condescending I legitimately feel you didn't get my post.)
Fair enough and I appreciate that you made the effort to point that out.
Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
I've watched his videos and I know what he's saying. Here's the problem. This is the case for nearly any movie out there. Whether it's lord of the rings, robin hood, it doesn't matter. I also pointed out the duels you see in cut scenes in Star Wars the old republic? From a real life swordplay stance? It's also laughably bad. The trailers? Also bad. Going by his logic? Jedi/Sith are terrible duelists regardless of era.Second, no one would make cuts with a lightsaber if they were real from a competitive standpoint. I can comment on swordplay. Why? I've been doing it for nearly twenty years now. I would not make any kind of cutting motion with a lightsaber because it's terrible economy of movement. Economy of movement is important when utilizing any kind of weapon. You want to make the least movements possible that still allow you to deliver maximum damage. A lightsaber merely needs to touch someone in order to kill them. Any kind of "large swing" is pointless. Dooku's style would be the most practical and even then it's competitively terrible.
You can't base the performance of the styles on real life swordplay for this reason. When I was younger I hated any movie that had any kind of swordplay due to my knowledge on how a sword is actually used. Over time I had to accept that sometimes movies have to make concessions. Simply because people don't want to watch fights that are over in a few seconds and don't have any cool "flashiness" to them.
I do understand what you're saying and I am aware that what we see in movies is just to look cool and is nothing like actual real-life swordsmanship.
The thing is, like with your Star Trek example earlier, we have to try and account for that as best we can. Yes, as you say from a real-life perspective, Kirk and co would be terrible fighters and it would be stupid to try and fight in that manner in real life. But, as you point out, in-story, Kirk is "supposed" to be really good.
If we're trying to decide who'd win in a Versus match or are just trying to write a fan-fic, then how are we to determine who's better if none of the choreography is accurate in real-life? If we watch Character A in his movie and Character B in his, then yes, neither of them will look skilled in a "real-life" context, but for the purposes of a story or a Vs. we still have to try and make a few observations because it's all we've got.
No, the choreography shouldn't be used as an ironclad rule but in general, I don't think we should dismiss it completely either. It should be treated as a (very) rough guide to how that character moves, accounting for the "looks cool" factor as best we can. To go back to your Kirk example, if we made a "Kirk vs Lee (Enter the Dragon)" battle then I think we can agree that Lee is a better fighter even accounting for choreography limits.
That's what I see Jensaarai1 as doing. Acknowledging the limits of choreography and using it as a rough guide.