Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Eh, he didn't though. The pinning was not in a combat situation. Caedus didn't defend himself.Hence why when they fought, a bloodlusted Luke didn't instantly destroy him - because he can't.
Doesn't matter, LMAO. Luke didn't actually put any sort of visible effort into it whatsoever, and Caedus still couldn't break free, even after Luke walked down a hallway and shit. Caught of guard, or not, Jacen inability to break free proves they aren't close in the Force at all.
As for Luke not TK'ing him in his fights, so what? Luke didn't TK stomp Lumiya in their bouts either, or all the other foes he neglected to use his power advantage on.
Yeah, Caedus admits that he can't break free and that Luke could kill him at any moment, it was hardly like he was just letting Luke pin him there for the lultz.
As for why rage Luke didn't TK him, it was a dumb blunder spurred by anger. He decided to just leap at Jacen, disregarded environmental hazards that he could clearly see, etc. The alternative explanation that he just can't is obviously wrong given that Caedus admits that he can - and even if you think that's just because he was taken by surprise, Luke could've easily taken him by surprise during their fight, since Caedus thought he was dead. The explanation that Luke wasn't thinking clearly is more consistent with the evidence than the one that Luke can't do it.
As for why he didn't TK Lumiya, that's obviously not because he can't - Lumiya is explicitly pretty weak in the Force. He also could've just shot down Lumiya in his starfighter but directly stated in his narration that he wanted to confronted Lumiya personally. Then, after defeating her, he grabs her just so he can decapitate her ceremoniously. Again, no sign of wanting to go for the tactically optimal moves. Lumiya herself never had any doubt that she could defeat Luke.
It should also be noted that in Invincible, Luke is meditating on all the future possibilities where he fights Jacen himself, and he says that he wins in all of them (but falls to the dark side).
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Black holes, which you still don't think is impressive for some reason, UnuThul, Caedus, Vader's fortress, killing seven slayers, etc.The quotes are their own support. That's like saying you don't support the Plagueis' novels description of Tenebrous because it isn't "supported" anywhere else - it counts as evidence unto itself.
Anyway, the case for Luke being leagues above Galen, even if you ignore all of his monstrous feats, is that he was already matching Vader as a duelist as of RotJ, with like a few months of real training. 👆
If you wish to suggest that Vader was "conflicted", follow your own tongue and prove up.
Additionally, Vader and Sidious were both immensely pleased by Luke's progress, even though they thought he had been training from a young age. So they thought his ability at that age matched what they'd expect someone with Skywalker's potential to have. .i.e. Luke grows powerful immensely quickly, and then grows for 40 years to his peak, and it's ludicrous to assert that he wouldn't have vastly outstripped Vader, who had about 30 years to train and half the potential.
Dovan Basil's which are far less powerful then most real life singularities. Ant has already explained that Caedus wasn't fighting back against Luke. The Imperial Palace feat is about as good as Luke taking apart Vader's castle. You'll have to explain the 7 Slayers and Unuthul feat to me.
Evidence is evidence unto itself and they most often take the form of feats. I don't view quotes as evidence.
And Galen was stated to be Luke's photo negative. It's apparent to me that Luke simply spent more time honing his lightsaber capabilities over his force abilities. There's also the fact that Luke was already an adult by the time he started training, his learning curve is going to be much greater then that of a child's. Galen himself grows about as much as Luke once he gets out from under Vader's thumb and is exposed to multiple facets of the Force.
I believe both Vader and Luke were hindered to an extent but I believe RotJ Luke is an equal as a lightsaber combatant to Vader.
Where does it say Vader and Sidious expected Luke to have been trained prior to ANH?
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, manipulating a Dovin Bassal, before gaining a substantial amount of power, is totally superior to possibly bringing down palace. 👆Not to mention, Luke was far from his prime collapsed, recreated, then destroyed, the mountain size structure, anyway. Scale it, and it's > Palpatine not-so-infallible quote on his TK.
Luke isn't a DS, so of course he wouldn't have any destructive powers like that in his repertoire.
That being said, if Luke's n00bs trainee Jedi could create something similar to a Force Storm like Skywalker mused in Dark Apprentice, I don't see why Luke couldn't if he actually tries.
Nah, LMAO. Luke has shown abilities Palpatine couldn't dream of. Show me Palpatine using Art of Small, Fold Space, Flow Walk, Alter Environment, doppelganger, invisibility, etc.
Debatable. Luke creating an illusion only Caedus can see --- the same Caedus that no sold Thul TP in a weaker state --- is just as good as anything Sidious has done.
Luke doesn't even use lightning, KEK. Not like it matters, Force Light and Electric Judgement, more than make up for this. As well as his far superior defensive showings.
Caedus deflecting/shielding himself from turbolsaers is just as good, if not better, than anything Vader has done in the Force. He has also ragdolled X-Wings, tossed around shuttles, and choked Jaina --- the same Jaina --- that was manipulating aircrafts while they carried tons of cargo, against their will, before becoming more powerful.
His mastery, versatility, and knowledge in the Force, clearly supersedes him however, and that's not debatable.
But even if you are correct (which, you aren't), the ease at which he performed the feat, would still mean he could do the same to Galen, just with more effort. Unless you think there is a massive difference between Jacen and Galen, which, is down right cancer.
Honestly it depends on the power of the Dovan Basil which is unspecified at least from what you told me in the Kyp vs Galen thread.
Palpatine was not in his prime when he mused he was capable of doing this as well. I see no reason to doubt he is capable of such when he is able to create force storms capable of swallowing moons.
He should have shown capabilities of similar magnitude.
Quote that the force storm its referring to is akin to Sidious's rather then the "storms" of lightning Bane and TOR era characters often employ?
Like dominating DE Luke? Erasing the memories of a portion of Coruscant's population? Zombifying Byss?
I'm referring to Luke's electric judgement here. Call it energy manipulation if you like.
??? Vader has shieleded himself from the largest droid factory in the Outer Rim exploding. I doubt Caedus shielding himself from turbolasers is intended to be superior despite calcs you'll likely pull out claiming that. Ragdolling ships is child's play to Vader. Quote me Caedus choking Jaina? I'd like some context. Regardless Vader choked Galen briefly pre prime who is superior to Jaina.
*Shrug* Sidious has the entirety of the Rule of Two's accumulated knowledge and apparently can create new Force powers on a whim. I'd side with Sidious if we're talking versatility in power sets.
I think there's a moderate power difference between them.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
@Syndicate, also note that rage! RotJ Luke was utterly overwhelming Vader through his sheer power in the Force (it's not like he was frazzling anyone with technique lol), and I doubt that he was on par with his LotF incarnation.
I don't think he was. I think that Luke takes sabers solidly against either or both Revan and Luke. I'd argue the team could take it by relying on their force abilities.
Originally posted by The EllimistUh, Vader said that he never planned to destroy the Emperor with Marek.
I could've sworn there was a quote somewhere saying that the Emperor can "destroy them both", but regardless, if the two together could have taken down Palpatine, Vader would've tried. Most generously, we can say that the outcome would have been inconclusive.Luke is powerful enough to ragdoll Galen or Revan, seeing as how he could ragdoll Caedus. I see this as a Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi Wan, except lopsided towards Skywalker.
Legacy of the Force: Inferno
"Don't play stupid," Luke snapped. "This isn't about the academy. It's about Ben."
"Ben?" Caedus stopped at the corner of his desk, feigning shock. "Did something happen to him?"
"You tell me," Luke said. "You're the one who sent him."
"Sent him where! I've hardly spoken to Ben since the funeral."
In the next instant, Caedus found himself flying across the cabin toward his observation bubble. Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze; he had simply grabbed Caedus in the Force and hurled him five meters into his chair.
"Don't lie." Luke started across the cabin. "I'm getting tired of it."
Caedus sprang out of the chair... or attempted to. Instead, he found himself struggling against an invisible weight. He felt as if he were accelerating to lightspeed with a faulty inertial compensator.
"Luke, you've gone mad." Caedus reached for the controls on the arm of his chair and discovered he couldn't even do that much. "You can't do this. I know you're having trouble dealing with Mara's death, but..."
"This has nothing to do with Mara," Luke said. "And you're lucky it doesn't. If she were here-if she had known what you were using Ben for-there'd be pieces of you scattered along the entire length of the Hydian Way."
The irony of the statement was far from lost on Caedus, but he was too astonished-and too frightened-to take any pleasure in it. While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion.
Keenly aware that all that stood between him and a quick death was Luke Skywalker's much-strained sense of decency, Caedus let a little of his very real fear seep into the Force, just enough to seem properly alarmed.
"Does this have something to do with Cal Omas?" he asked. "Tell me Ben didn't do anything foolish!"
Luke's eyes grew narrow and cold. "Tell me what makes you think he might have."
"Of course," Caedus said. " Ben learned of a conversation that made it look as though Omas had something to do with Mara's death."
" That's ridiculous," Luke said. " Chief Omas would never have done something like that."
"Never have!" Caedus echoed. "You mean Ben.... you mean Omas is dead?"
Luke looked at him without answering.
Caedus would have shaken his head, save that it was still being held motionless with the Force. Had it been Mara's death instead of Omas's that Luke had just heard about, Caedus knew he would already be dead. Another reminder that anyone could be surprised.
"I tried to tell Ben the same thing, but he's so full of anger." He locked gazes with Luke. "I'm afraid he's going to become its servant, if one of us doesn't reach him soon."
Luke nodded, then sat on the corner of Caedus's desk. "How did Ben find out about this conversation?" Caedus forced himself not to look away. "I wish I knew."
"You told him." When Luke's expression did not change, Caedus realized that his uncle had been expecting the lie, that he had already worked matters out for himself. "It's just so convenient for you, isn't it? You let something slip in an innocent conversation and point Ben like a missile."
" That's not what happened." The denial was strictly for form; Caedus knew Luke wouldn't believe it. "But even if it were, now is hardly the time to discuss it. We're a Squib's hair from victory. After we crush the Confederation, I'll be..."
Krova's voice came over the comm speaker. "I'm sorry to interrupt, Colonel Solo, but Admiral Bwua'tu is ready for the Hapans." Caedus felt a knot unwind inside. Finally.
"Tell Admiral Bwua'tu the Hapans will be coming shortly." Caedus had retained personal control of the Hapan Home Fleet, determined to prevent any risk to Tenel Ka or Allana by not using it until victory was certain. He waited until Krova had acknowledged the order and closed the channel, then turned to his uncle.
"I've told you all I know about Omas's death, and I need to transmit that order myself. The Queen Mother insisted I take personal responsibility for committing her fleet."
Luke raised his brow. "You think you're dismissing me?"
"I know I am." Caedus put an angry edge in his voice; he might be trapped in a humiliating position right now, but he was still the leader of the Galactic Alliance-and Luke was still its servant. "If you like, we'll open an inquiry into Omas's death after we've saved the Alliance."
Luke glared at Caedus for a long moment, then finally slipped off the desk. "Is that a promise?"
"It is."
"Then I'll take it for what it's worth, "Luke said. Leaving Caedus Force-pinned in his chair, he started toward the door. "I'll show myself out."
Caedus knew he would be freed as soon as Luke turned his concentration to something other than Force-pinning him-but that might take minutes, and Caedus needed to send in the Home Fleet now. Besides, he was the Chief of State of the Galactic Alliance, and he could not allow anyone, even Luke Skywalker, to humiliate him and simply leave. He had to assert some sort of authority.
"Luke," Caedus called. "Aren't you forgetting something?"
Luke stopped at the door and looked back, the rage in his face now softening to what looked like remorse. "You're right. I should warn you that you'll have to crush the Confederation without StealthXs. The Jedi can support you no longer."
"What?" Caedus was so shocked that he tried to rise- and found himself as unable to move as before. "You can't desert now. We can end this war!"
"We could destroy the Confederation fleets and kill a lot of rebels, "Luke admitted. "But I don't think you can end this war, Jacen. I don't think you even know what it's about."
"That's absurd." Caedus did not understand how a man who had been fighting wars for forty years could be so foolish. "After their fleets are destroyed, Corellia and Both-awui will have to accept our terms, and once they've surrendered, the rest of the Confederation will have no choice but to come racing to rejoin the Alliance."
Luke shook his head and reached for the touch pad beside the door. "There's always a choice, Jacen."
"And if you go through with this one, you'll regret it." Caedus could not understand why Luke wanted to desert him just when they were on the brink of saving the Alliance, but he did know how to prevent it. "Have you forgotten the academy?"
The door opened. Instead of stepping through, Luke faced Caedus and spoke in a very calm voice. "I'm sure you're not threatening the younglings."
He pointed at the base of Jacen's meditation chair and made a tapping motion with his finger. The pedestal gave a loud whumpf, and the seat dropped a quarter meter.
"Because you really don't want to see me angry." Luke made the tapping motion again. The pedestal emitted a metallic shriek, and the seat dropped another quarter meter. "And I think you're smart enough to know that."
Luke tapped a last time, and the pedestal collapsed with a low loud crump, depositing Caedus on the floor with his feet sticking out in front of him like a child.
"But if you want to try me, go ahead and make that threat."
Luke lowered his hand, and the weight vanished from Caedus's chest. He could have leapt up to attack-had he been that foolish-but Sith were not slaves to their emotions. Avenging his humiliation could wait until after he had saved the Alliance. So, remaining on the floor where Luke had deposited him, Caedus simply touched the comm pad on his armrest. "Lieutenant, do we have an open channel to Prince Isolder yet?"