Barsen'Thor vs. Dooku (Force battle)

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So far, nobody on Thor's side has actually produced a feat on par with his cruiser tossing, or a powerscale on par with his ragdolling Obi Wan, but have instead just said that he did his when he was young and would've grown stronger by an unknown amount. That's not enough.

How can you not be impressed by his Force earthquake whilst creating multiple whirlwinds feat, considering Dooku's never done something similar?

Also, how can you not be impressed by him tanking several saber blows with TK while weakened and then actually TKing the possessed Master several meters back against the wall? That's pretty up there with ragdolling an Obi-Wan who's pretty much established as inferior to Thor in terms of Force abilities.

I mean, at least one of those has to be good for you.

And it's not far-fetched at all to assume that considering some of his good feats were done not near his prime and weakened, a full-power prime Thor would be a match for someone like Dooku in terms of Force power.

Originally posted by Petrus
How can you not be impressed by his Force earthquake whilst creating multiple whirlwinds feat, considering Dooku's never done something similar?

So it's not as much raw power as flinging cruisers unless if you can show me how potent this earthquake was, and it's not like it's tactically useful against a single enemy, so what does it prove?

Also, how can you not be impressed by him tanking several saber blows with TK while weakened and then actually TKing the possessed Master several meters back against the wall? That's pretty up there with ragdolling an Obi-Wan who's pretty much established as inferior to Thor in terms of Force abilities.

Tanking saber blows with TK? That's just moving back someone's arm. And flinging a featless master means nothing.

I mean, at least one of those has to be good for you.

Do you seriously think that compares to ragdolling Obi Wan or tossing cruisers?

And it's not far-fetched at all to assume that considering some of his good feats were done not near his prime and weakened, a full-power prime Thor would be a match for someone like Dooku in terms of Force power.

It's possible, but you haven't presented such a case.

You're asking us to prove how potent Thor's feats are while unable to prove the size of those 'cruisers'.

I already responded to that cancer in the last page.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He claims K'kruhk found a smarter way to bring it down and the pilot screams "it's the controls"... I think it's pretty clearcut personally.

And that takes place years after Vos ragdolled him so I don't think it's reverse applicable either way.

👆

Dooku supporters reaching per usual.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So it's not as much raw power as flinging cruisers unless if you can show me how potent this earthquake was, and it's not like it's tactically useful against a single enemy, so what does it prove?

Tactically useful? Well, considering he used the earthquake in a battle to unbalance enemy troops, it fulfills its purpose. Also, he did this while simultaneously producing several whirlwinds with the Force, targeting opponents. So yeah, it's both impressive and tactically useful.

Tanking saber blows with TK? That's just moving back someone's arm. And flinging a featless master means nothing.

lol, if that's 'just moving back someone's arm' and it's as easy as you make it sound, why doesn't every single Force-user do it? He also put up barriers to tank it, not just TK. Pretty powerful barrier it must be to help tank multiple saber blows.
And it's not so much the fact that he did this to a featless Master, is that he did all this while visibly injured and limited.

Do you seriously think that compares to ragdolling Obi Wan or tossing cruisers?

Considering Obi-Wan isn't that impressive a Force-user, and considering Dooku is way above in that regard, yeah, I do. TKing 80 meter long cruisers is impressive, and certainly not far from full-powered peak Thor's pay-grade, when you consider what he's done.

It's possible, but you haven't presented such a case.

It's logical to assume Thor would drastically improve from a weakened, not peak version of himself, and since he's tossing around 20, 25 meter metal chunks casually and obliterating 2 story high impenetrable metallic doors with ease before his prime, he should be capable of tossing around massive objects like small cruisers or big ships.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He claims K'kruhk found a smarter way to bring it down and the pilot screams "it's the controls"... I think it's pretty clearcut personally.

And that takes place years after Vos ragdolled him so I don't think it's reverse applicable either way.

The author's claim is ambiguous. He says Jedi like K'kruhk are "clever" and will find intelligent ways to use the Force.

The pilot screaming "It's the controls!" could be because the controls aren't responding.

The hand gestures K'kruhk has of pulling his hands up into the sky, then clenching his fists intensly then pulling slamming his hands down. That would only make sense if K'kruhk is legitimately pulling it down, because messing with controls would take far less effort.

And it takes place 2 years aftewards, and K'kruhk shouldn't have improved by any vast margin. Even being generous and saying he improved twice fold, Vos would still be considerably his superior. Of course, this is hardly the only comparison I can draw from for Dooku being capable of casually manipulating ships.

EDIT: Also, Stadley isn't even the writer. He invented K'kruhk, but Fire Carrier was written by Mick Harrison, so Stradley has no say in the matter.

@Petrus I'll respond later.

K.

Originally posted by MythLord
The author's claim is ambiguous. He says Jedi like K'kruhk are "clever" and will find intelligent ways to use the Force.

The pilot screaming "It's the controls!" could be because the controls aren't responding.

The hand gestures K'kruhk has of pulling his hands up into the sky, then clenching his fists intensly then pulling slamming his hands down. That would only make sense if K'kruhk is legitimately pulling it down, because messing with controls would take far less effort.

And it takes place 2 years aftewards, and K'kruhk shouldn't have improved by any vast margin. Even being generous and saying he improved twice fold, Vos would still be considerably his superior. Of course, this is hardly the only comparison I can draw from for Dooku being capable of casually manipulating ships.

EDIT: Also, Stadley isn't even the writer. He invented K'kruhk, but Fire Carrier was written by Mick Harrison, so Stradley has no say in the matter.

@Petrus I'll respond later.

That... isn't ambiguous. Finding clever ways to use the Force =/= smashing shit up.

.... No it couldn't.

Not necessarily. He puts his hands up as he extends his will towards the ship, closes his fists when he grabs control over the controls and slams them down as he forces the controls into freefall.

Uh, pretty sure many people improved dramatically in 2 years, like in the clones wars and shit.

Just as general advice to both sides to keep the thread from being bogged down too much, maybe focus on other abilities besides TK? Dooku has lightning, Thor has barriers, healing, etc.

Thus far, this thread is interesting, though I've noticed a few cases both sides can make that no-one has touched on due to the intense focus on this one cruiser feat.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, that feat still isn't "all that". She/he blasted through a large metal door, and damaged it. Kenobi disintegrating the blaster-fire-resistant Durge slightly after AotC, is a better feat, and a considerably more powerful Obi got ragdolled by the Count.

Lolwut? No way is that even in the same ballpark. You don't think a massive blast door designed to contain explosions is blaster resistant? It's obviously vastly superior as a feat, done barely a Knight, while weakened.

Durge is "blaster resistant" because he regenerates and is hard to kill normally. But Gen'Dai aren't more durable than a meter-thick massive slab of metal. A Smuggler armed with pistols and grenades can kill them, even when they have the Force. 😬

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You're having trouble with this, I see. In this context, monstrous and hulking are synonyms. Indeed, hulking might be better for Dooku because it specifically denotes a large mass, whereas monstrous could just mean that it looks scary. But thanks for brilliantly pointing out an irrelevant distinction in semantics. 👆

Uh, I'm pretty sure you were the one having trouble with this. 😆

But I'll back off so I don't rustle your jimmies.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not sure what you're talking about, but people make reasonable estimates in real life all the time (.i.e. science, engineering, finance, pretty much everything). In this case, we know that

a) they are cruisers
b) they're hulking by the standards of a cruiser
c) this is Anakin, who is very privy to being around spaceships

If I recall correctly, most cruisers in SW range from 80 to 500 or so meters in length. Seeing as how these are large cruisers, they're probably on the upper end, .i.e. in the hundreds of meters. That's a perfectly logical deduction.

Even if they're only like fifty meters long, that's still more impressive than Barsen'Thor throwing a metal bar, which you've masturbated to in like seven different threads by now.

a) We don't know that they're actually cruisers since Dmb proved that the author uses the term cruisers interchangeably with other ships. We have no idea how big they were and an analysis of the descriptions suggests they aren't that big at all.
b) Lmao. Thats not how descriptions work.
c) Unfortunately for you, the author apparently isn't.

That's a ridiculous estimation. These ships were small enough that they could be simply dodged or ducked under and one has a wing that's low enough to the ground and small enough to threaten to cut them in half. These aren't actual cruisers, they're just miscellaneous ships.

Thor did that at the start of her career and while Dooku was empowered by the nexus, Thor was weakened from performing the shielding technique. That the feats are comparable at all is pretty bad for Dooku, ngl.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So we now know that Dooku has a better environmental-manipulation based telekinetic feat than anything Thor has done. He's certainly got superior accolades, and from powerscaling he's ragdolled Obi Wan, which is above anyone Barsen'Thor has done the same to. Where, exactly, do we give Thor the advantage? The most I can tell is that s/he might be more acquainted with relying purely on the Force for combat given a relative lack of dueling proficiency. That's not enough to overcome Tyranus's advantages in power and mastery.

We know nothing of the sort, the cruiser feat is impressive but ultimately far feebler than your estimations and performed in better conditions than Thor's feats. And 'Thor being said to be one of the greatest force users the Order had ever seen is at least as good as anything Dooku got in terms of accolades imo.

Lol, Obi-Wan. As if the Barsen'thor wouldn't make Kenobi her b*tch with TK.

Dooku won't threaten 'Thor with the Force when she's powerful enough to tank blasts that disintegrate blast doors and lightsabers and is a supremely skilled combatant with the Force. Like Vixas says, Thor also has high-level healing, capable of healing someone from the brink of death to full health in seconds. Ultimately, Thor far from her prime and vastly weakened was still able to slaughter her way through a capital ship (remember that she fights with the Force, which is pretty energy-intensive) and defeat a Sith Lord empowered by hundreds of Jedi Masters. She's faced far greater odds than she is here and come out on top.

Originally posted by Petrus
This was a Savage Opress that only just started his Sith training, and him pushing the huge ship off the cliff on S5 proves he improved a lot since, just as Thor drastically would, too.

Um, Savage did that feat in Season 3, right before he and Asajj fought Dooku, actually. And still, Dooku was far superior to Savage individually:

Taken from: http://www.starwars.com/video/dooku-vs-his-apprentices
Asajj Ventress and Savage Opress wage a combined attack against Dooku, whose abilities with the Force far surpass those of his apprentices.

And superior to both Asajj and Savage collectively:

Taken from: http://www.starwars.com/databank/asajj-ventress
Yet when the moment arose, Ventress and Opress were not powerful enough to destroy Dooku, and the monster turned against both.[/I]

So, my comparison still stands. And you also haven't countered my K'kruhk comparison.

Originally posted by Petrus
Yeah, I'm not actually arguing Thor is overall superior to Dooku. Dooku is the superior and more powerful combatant in general, but in regards to Force usage in battles, I put him slightly below Thor.

Dooku's usage of the Force in battles should also be more refined than 'Thor's. Barsen seems to just overpower ones defenses, Dooku can, on the other hand, exploit defensive lapses and openings and take advantage of that. Even his one-handed, casual Force Push managed to send back a defending Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Petrus
And Kenobi's Durge feat really isn't that impressive. The only thing that happened is Kenobi was swallowed up by Durge, and from the inside he used TK to blow a single opponent away. Not anywhere near Thor's accomplishments.

Durge's durability is insane; he's tanked being bombarded by dozens of mines, unharmed, and has tanked close-range grenade explosions unharmed. Yet, somewhat-post AotC Kenobi disintegrates him. It very much rivals most, if not all, of Thor's achievements.

Originally posted by Petrus
You seem to be ignoring the fact that a lot of Thor's feats [including these two] were accomplished in a weakened state and not anywhere near his prime. You tell me, if early in the game and not at full strength Thor can do impressive TK stuff like that, what do you think a KotFE Thor is capable of?

And all of Dooku's feats are done out of amusement, easily, and without any possible limit established on his powers, other than he's just not Anakin, or Yoda, or Sidious. Heck, a "negligent whipcrack of power" is enough for him to dispatch Kenobi for a long time, he just sorta lifts up his hands and the obelisks start flying and he was amused when he threw around the cruisers on Korriban, which the novel later says he does easily.

Originally posted by Petrus
Regardless of who the opponents are, Force waving dozens of soldiers/Sith/beasts simultaneously is an impressive feat for anyone. When Savage does it, it's good. When Pong Krell does it against the 501st, it's good. When Dooku does it against Clones and Anakin, it's good. It's not different here.

I legitimately don't consider any of those feats impressive. Any average Force user can send back half a dozen people back with a Force Push. More advanced can do dozens, but that still isn't super-special-awesome.

Originally posted by Petrus
Nevertheless, Dooku being capable or not of producing earthquakes with the Force whilst also producing multiple whirlwinds during fights is irrelevant, it's still hella impressive. And Dooku's never done anything even remotely similar to that, so we can't assume he has the ability to do so. Also, Dooku has never directly tanked a saber slash with TK or barriers. As far as we know, he can't.

You're essentially using an appeal to ignorance here, which is a logical fallacy. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Dooku is a conservative man, he's never used extreme demonstrations of power and is much more precise and on-point. Therefore, just because he didn't use Force Whirlwind and create low-key earthquakes doesn't mean he couldn't. Force users far inferior to him have collapsed cave ceilings, which rivals creating low-key earthquakes, and Force Whirlwind is a relatively basic ability.

Regarding blocking lightsabers; like I said -- vastly inferior combatants(an exhausted Shaak Ti, mentally/physically damaged Kylo Ren) have done so, so why the Count couldn't is beyond me?

Originally posted by Petrus
Aren't the Sith Spirits and entities partially the reason why Korriban is a powerful dark side planet? To be honest, I'm not sure, but if this is true and then considering Ragnos' tomb is there, as well as his spirit and presumably he isn't the only one, Korriban is at the very least good enough to amp someone who's drawing on the power of darkness.

Korriban is a Sith World filled with it's artifacts and spirits, deep in the graves, thus it should be powerful because of the spirits -- yes. However, that power is still miniscule. And sure, Dooku can draw on the darkness and amplify himself, but any small amp he might've recieved is balanced out by the fact that he would later gain several holocrons from Sidious and retrieve the Dark Holocron, alongside the holocron of Andeddu, which are noted as giving the Count power:

Taken from: The Official Star Wars Fact File #116
Dooku had at his disposal a Sith holocron. This powerful and ancient Dark Side resource enhanced his own powers and helped to entice other Force users into the Separatist cause.

Taken from: Star Wars Republic 63: Striking from the Shadows
Through this holocron, I have access to the long dead wisdom of Darth Andeddu. The wisdom and power of the Sith.

Taken from: The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology
The most powerful Sith Holocron contained Sith teachings and histories that covered some hundred thousand years... The Dark Holocron was taken by Jedi Lorian Nod, who maintained that he saw "true evil" when he accessed the device. Motivated by Nod's claims, Dooku later used the Sith Holocron as well, unlocking its secrets in preparation for his transformation into Darth Tyranus.

Just saying, but Dooku got hold of the Dark Holocron before that, not after. It specifically mentions in that last quote that it was "in preparation for his transformation into Darth Tyranus".

Originally posted by SunRazer
Just saying, but Dooku got hold of the Dark Holocron before that, not after. It specifically mentions in that last quote that it was "in preparation for his transformation into Darth Tyranus".

How did I not notice that? Meh, that's hardly the only knowledge the Count had. I believe that, after AotC, Sidious gave him other holoprojectors, plus he rediscovered Andeddu's holocron.

I'd like to see some quotes on Dooku's knowledge/power growth specifically since AotC. Everybody knows he grew more powerful than as a Jedi.

I'm in agreement with SunRazer tbh. ^

I was under the impression he recieved most of the holocrons he had after AotC. mmm. Though one who has a Force potential engimatic to Yoda should logically improve over a 4 year time period.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Uh, I'm pretty sure you were the one having trouble with this. 😆

But I'll back off so I don't rustle your jimmies.

Nice argument. Maybe next time you should try trimming it down to a simple "no", maximize that efficiency.

a) We don't know that they're actually cruisers since Dmb proved that the author uses the term cruisers interchangeably with other ships. We have no idea how big they were and an analysis of the descriptions suggests they aren't that big at all.

If the author has a broad definition of cruiser, a hulking cruiser is going to be one of the cruisers on the bigger end of that range.

b) Lmao. Thats not how descriptions work.

Um, yes, it is. If it's a hulking X, then it's an X that's hulking. Please actually explain how this isn't what descriptions work, because it seems like you're pulling the classic "that's not how it works but I won't explain why and act mysterious instead" bluffing tactic.

c) Unfortunately for you, the author apparently isn't.

Pretty sure it's third person limited.

That's a ridiculous estimation. These ships were small enough that they could be simply dodged or ducked under

Um, yeah? You can duck under something that's really big, lol.

and one has a wing that's low enough to the ground and small enough to threaten to cut them in half. These aren't actual cruisers, they're just miscellaneous ships.

How "tall" would a 100 meter long ship be - 15 meters? So it's hardly implausible that it would reach down to hit two pretty tall humans, and if they're moving fast enough they could certainly cut them in half.

Thor did that at the start of her career and while Dooku was empowered by the nexus, Thor was weakened from performing the shielding technique. That the feats are comparable at all is pretty bad for Dooku, ngl.

Except that it's pretty obvious that they're not, seeing as how that piece of metal is significantly smaller than any reasonable definition of a hulking cruiser, and even smaller than your definition.

We know nothing of the sort, the cruiser feat is impressive but ultimately far feebler than your estimations and performed in better conditions than Thor's feats. And 'Thor being said to be one of the greatest force users the Order had ever seen is at least as good as anything Dooku got in terms of accolades imo.

No, because Dooku was the greatest student Yoda saw at the peak of the Order. That's more impressive.

Lol, Obi-Wan. As if the Barsen'thor wouldn't make Kenobi her b*tch with TK.

Nice assumption. Who has she ragdolled that is beyond Obi Wan?

Dooku won't threaten 'Thor with the Force when she's powerful enough to tank blasts that disintegrate blast doors and lightsabers

.i.e. below padawan Anakin, who can manipulate dreadnaughts. 👆

and is a supremely skilled combatant with the Force.

Her one advantage may be that she's more used to fighting just with the Force because she's relatively bad with a saber, but that doesn't mean much when Dooku gave lectures in telekinesis and has dominated Obi Wan, Ventress, Vos, etc. with ease.

Like Vixas says, Thor also has high-level healing, capable of healing someone from the brink of death to full health in seconds.

Good for her. To my knowledge, she's never done this with herself - although Dooku has rejuvenated his stamina within seconds. He's also cast elaborate illusions, studied various sith holocrons, learned under both Yoda and Sidious's tutelage, etc.

Ultimately, Thor far from her prime and vastly weakened was still able to slaughter her way through a capital ship (remember that she fights with the Force, which is pretty energy-intensive) and defeat a Sith Lord empowered by hundreds of Jedi Masters. She's faced far greater odds than she is here and come out on top.

None of that puts her above Dooku. Be realistic here; do you think beating a bunch of people on a capital ship puts her above Dooku ragdolling Obi Wan? Nah. Do you think throwing a big piece of metal puts her above tossing around cruisers? Nah. The most you have to say is that she did these things before her prime, but honestly, I don't see any case for how she's better even in it.

Originally posted by Petrus
Tactically useful? Well, considering he used the earthquake in a battle to unbalance enemy troops, it fulfills its purpose. Also, he did this while simultaneously producing several whirlwinds with the Force, targeting opponents. So yeah, it's both impressive and tactically useful.

That's not very tactically useful against a single powerful Force user, and it's not as impressive as tossing cruisers, so it doesn't help her case.

lol, if that's 'just moving back someone's arm' and it's as easy as you make it sound, why doesn't every single Force-user do it?

It's more efficient to just block it? Lol. In either case it just establishes that she was very strong in TK relative to her opponent. Unless if said master has actual feats, it doesn't tell us much. Dooku didn't block Obi Wan's lightsaber with the Force - he lifted him up and flung him across the room.

He also put up barriers to tank it, not just TK. Pretty powerful barrier it must be to help tank multiple saber blows.

Seeing as how it's just stopping the blow, again, not really. Kylo Ren actually tanking them with his hands is impressive, for instance.

And it's not so much the fact that he did this to a featless Master, is that he did all this while visibly injured and limited.

...ok? Are you telling me that a "visibly injured" Dooku wouldn't beat a random Jedi Master? Or that Obi Wan wouldn't? Or that TPM Obi Wan wouldn't?

Considering Obi-Wan isn't that impressive a Force-user,

Lol, people mainly say that precisely because Dooku ragdolled him, but Obi Wan is still one of the most powerful Jedi of all time, he matched Vader telekinesis, he turned back Durge's needle spam, he's busted through massive durasteel walls, he's used the Force to guide himself through blocking fire from hundreds of battle droids at once, etc. Obi Wan is not very powerful relative to, say, Yoda, but he's certainly more powerful than that random Master 'Thor dominated.

and considering Dooku is way above in that regard, yeah, I do. TKing 80 meter long cruisers is impressive, and certainly not far from full-powered peak Thor's pay-grade, when you consider what he's done.

I would need to see more evidence. I don't think it's clear that the time between Act I and Act III automatically means you can go from throwing a bus sized object to throwing war cruiser sized objects.

It's logical to assume Thor would drastically improve from a weakened, not peak version of himself, and since he's tossing around 20, 25 meter metal chunks casually and obliterating 2 story high impenetrable metallic doors with ease before his prime, he should be capable of tossing around massive objects like small cruisers or big ships.

I would not be so sure, and note that Dooku still has the advantages of lightning, illusions, dun moch, superior Force augmentation for defense and mobility, more years of experience, the works of sith holocrons, etc.

If you actually checked the feat Ellimit, you'd see that Thor didn't move the First Son's arm back, she used a barrier/force bubble. This isn't in question, this is what happened. You see the bubble.

But of course, being far enough above the First Son to move his arms is actually the better feat, lol. This is the guy who was hiding hundreds of Emperor's Children from the Jedi's senses under their noses and other Children thought his power was beyond contemplation.