Why did Nihilus need Sion's help against Traya?

Just something I've long wondered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlgUFQXbXcM

Here are some quotes:

"But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain her Force powers."

-- KotOR CG

"Sion learns much from the shrew, but grows frustrated with her abstract teachings. He conspires with Darth Nihilus to strip her powers and eventually severs Traya's hand."

-- KotOR CG

"Ousting Traya with Sion's help, Nihilus binges on the Force, nearly extinguishing the Jedi forever at Katarr."

-- KotOR CG

At the end of the day, just about everybody reckons that Nihilus is vastly more powerful than Traya by this point. So why does he need or want Sion's help? He doesn't need backup if he's vastly more powerful than Traya, since he might as well oust Traya by himself and become the undisputed ruler of the Sith Triumvirate - Sion can't possibly challenge him on his own. And Sith don't form alliances unless it's absolutely necessary - especially Nihilus.

For that matter, why would he wait until he was vastly more powerful than Traya to oust her? The nature of Sith is to claim the highest position as soon as you become more powerful than the top Sith. Nihilus was also impatient with Traya because she was denying him the freedom to sate his own hunger. I don't think anybody here would accept the idea that Nihilus actually needed Sion to help him against Traya (ie. Traya's still a bit more powerful than him at this point), but without that explanation, how do you explain Nihilus' need for Sion's aid?

So a starved Nihilus is supposed to be vastly more powerful than the one that ate Katarr in your eyes? Seems legit.

Because Traya is canonically the most powerful individual in KOTOR II. 👆

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
So a starved Nihilus is supposed to be vastly more powerful than the one that ate Katarr in your eyes? Seems legit.

When did I suggest that? And "starved"? This is the Nihilus that resurrected the capital ships with telekinesis.

Nihilus was never meant to be vastly more powerful than Traya. Yes, he's starved here. And again, because you seem to keep ignoring this, the Ravager was just caught inside a gravity well. It wasn't buried into the surface of Malachor somewhere. Do you not know what a gravity well is?

Nihilus was never meant to be vastly more powerful than Traya. Yes, he's starved here.

Well, the game files have Surik only being in awe of Nihilus' power, but fair enough.

Anyway, you have yet to clarify what your original question in the thread was. Also, I don't recall him being starved, nor did I insinuate that this version is more powerful than future versions (obviously not the case).

And you still haven't answered my actual question, which is why Nihilus needed Sion here.

And again, because you seem to keep ignoring this, the Ravager was just caught inside a gravity well. It wasn't buried into the surface of Malachor somewhere. Do you not know what a gravity well is?

Based on what is it not buried in the surface of Malachor?

At the same time hundreds of ships, Republic and Mandalorian alike, were yanked from orbit by the creation of an irresistible gravity vortex at the planet’s core. They crashed into the surface of the world, striking with such velocity that their hulls actually penetrated several kilometers into the ground, burying the twisted wreckage and broken bodies. Tens of thousands of lives were snuffed out in a fraction of a second.

-- The Old Republic: Revan

"Penetrating several kilometers into the ground" sounds like buried to me.

To clarify - Nihilus pulling out the ship from the surface of the planet doesn't exclude him from battling the gravity well as well.

And the quote above is from the Revan novel.

Post it in the Nihilus/Kun thread tbh, I'll be clearing that one up myself soon.

I'm trying to get a reasonable conclusion for why Nihilus needed Sion there. Nobody's even attempted to answer the question.

Because Traya is much more powerful than others give her credit for? Probably that.

Need? Well, the actual evidence shows that he didn't need Sion, and Avellone confirms this. 👆

I think just about nobody here will accept the notion that Traya's more powerful than the same Nihilus who resurrected the Ravager and potentially the rest of his fleet from the gravity well, but if nobody can propose a good answer to my question, then yeah, that's the only logical avenue left.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Need? Well, the actual evidence shows that he didn't need Sion, and Avellone confirms this. 👆

When has Avellone confirmed this? And what evidence? That Traya's attention was divided between Nihilus and Sion when Nihilus TK'd her into the wall or that Sion canonically helped Nihilus oust Traya?

In the same email where he stated that Traya's quote about the ancients was legit, he said that Nihilus didn't need Sion's help, and that Nihilus used Sion as a sort of "physical reminder," directly comparing it to how Sidious would use Maul. 👆

Can confirm that Avellone did say that Nihilus could have probably done it by himself.

Not sure how that works, but anyway, if I see the email, then I'll have my answer.

Originally posted by SunRazer

Anyway, you have yet to clarify what your original question in the thread was. Also, I don't recall him being starved, nor did I insinuate that this version is more powerful than future versions (obviously not the case).

And you still haven't answered my actual question, which is why Nihilus needed Sion here.

Because he's weaker than Traya, or at least she's comparable? The implication was obvious. Nihilus was becoming progressively more powerful throughout KotOR II, something Traya herself brings up. Plus, you know, he's eating planets. 2+2=4.

Based on what is it not buried in the surface of Malachor?

"Penetrating several kilometers into the ground" sounds like buried to me.

Said loading screen:

Which is why everyone has to keep telling you it was in orbit. It was not buried anywhere.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not sure how that works, but anyway, if I see the email, then I'll have my answer.

It's a thread in this forum, Chaos Theory made it IIRC.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
In the CG you're talking about it talks about his constant hunger and need to feed, you talk about him attacking her because she won't let him feed, but he's not starving?

"Starving" is defined as a severe deficiency. I doubt it was severe at this point.

Also, I was talking about Traya not letting him mindlessly feed off Jedi, which he wanted to do. Surely when she taught her how to Drain others, he'd have to have something to feed off?

Because he's weaker than Traya, or at least she's comparable? The implication was obvious. Nihilus was becoming progressively more powerful throughout KotOR II, something Traya herself brings up. Plus, you know, he's eating planets. 2+2=4.

Ah, so you do think that Traya > Nihilus at that point.

The loading screen that flatout says it's in a gravity well.
Said loading screen:

Which is why everyone has to keep telling you it was in orbit. It was not buried anywhere.

And I just posted a more recent quote (ergo, a retcon) that states the ships were buried on the surface.

And even if it wasn't buried, the feat's still impressive, and Traya's superiority moreso.

Originally posted by SunRazer
"Starving" is defined as a severe deficiency. I doubt it was severe at this point.

Ah, so you do think that Traya > Nihilus at that point.

And I just posted a more recent quote (ergo, a retcon) that states the ships were buried on the surface.

And even if it wasn't buried, the feat's still impressive, and Traya's superiority moreso.