Why did Nihilus need Sion's help against Traya?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yes. Constant agony is normal.

For Nihilus and Sion it is.

As an overall combatant? Sure.

No, just Force power.

No, you posted a quote that said hundreds of ships where buired into the surface. Not that every ship was. Wreckage still orbited the planet.

In the context of the novel, it's referring to every ship involved in battle/caught by the MSG. That's why it specifically mentions Revan and Meetra's ships being safely away from the MSG's influence.

But if we're not counting the retcon, then the ship's in orbit, yes, as is supported by the Prima Guide. The KotOR CG just mentions him raising it from Malachor, though.

It requires far more power to remove an object from the ground and then through the atmosphere, than just pushing it towards the natural direction gravity goes towards in a well.

Well, first of all, Nihilus having to raise the ship from the surface and having to contend with the gravity well are not mutually exclusive. If Nihilus resurrected the ship from the surface of the planet, in order to leave Malachor, he'd still have to contend with the gravity well.

Secondly, it's pushing in the opposite direction of the gravity, not the same direction, lmfao.

He didn't. Sion needed Nihilus' help. Sion was the one with the problem against Traya, Big N. was just there for the meal.

They were both pissed at her. It said she underestimated the depravity of both.

But looking at it in that light does change things a bit.

Also, "Big N?" 😂

None of these sources state he needed Sion's help, none of these sources even state that he helped drain her. So he didn't. 👆

The last one said he ousted Traya with Sion's help, meaning Sion was involved, and I'm hoping "help" doesn't refer to beating up Traya after she was stripped from the Force.

As for Draining, the first one?

And without referring to Avellone's quote, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to give a reason for Sion's presence.

Read Avellone's email. Interesting. He did say that Sion might've been able to do it alone when Traya utterly crushes Sion by herself, though.

Traya was stronger at the end of Kotor 2 than she was at that point.

True, though I doubt she would've gone from "Sion might be able to solo her" to "Traya makes Sion her ***** without gesturing". Just for reference, how many indicators are there of her growth in power?

Originally posted by SunRazer
The last one said he ousted Traya with Sion's help, meaning Sion was involved, and I'm hoping "help" doesn't refer to beating up Traya after she was stripped from the Force.

As for Draining, the first one?

And without referring to Avellone's quote, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to give a reason for Sion's presence.

The first quote only suggests complicity, in the same way won't might say that "two men lured a woman into an alley and killed her" when only one of them actually did the killing, the other being just a complicit bystander.

As for why Sion was present? Because he hates Traya's guts and has a vested interest in her downfall? All these quotes really suggest was that Sion was involved, which we can surmise ourselves from the scene.

Also can someone post this email?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"Help" could mean any number of things from yeah, beating her into unconsciousness to whatever might have happened in the aftermath of that scene.

The first quote only suggests complicity, in the same way won't might say that "two men lured a woman into an alley and killed her" when only one of them actually did the killing, the other being just a complicit bystander.

As for why Sion was present? Because he hates Traya's guts and has a vested interest in her downfall? All these quotes really suggest was that Sion was involved, which we can surmise ourselves from the scene.

1. Avellone seems to agree with your interpretation. Sion was apparently there as the icing on the cake. But without that, it'd be hard to imagine an alternative other than Traya being too much for Nihilus to handle at that point.

2. Except Sion knows Drain, so you're essentially suggesting that X and Y both have knives, lure said woman into the alley, and then only X does the stabbing.

Yes, Nihilus' Drain is infinitely more potent, but Sion still has Drain. I'd compare it to Kun + Kyp beating Luke or resurrecting the Sun Crusher, where the text notes Kyp's efforts being feeble in comparison to Kun's, but the effort's there all the same.

Ant posted these images on another thread (it's the very last point in the last image):

Interesting, well I'm not sure Avellone is anywhere saying that Sion employed drain, instead he is a "physical reminder" - implying that his physical attack was all the part he had to play. mmm

EDIT: However I think its important we know the wording of Ant's question.

He doesn't talk about Drain there. I don't even know what Ant's original question was.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Avellone seems to agree with your interpretation. Sion was apparently there as the icing on the cake. But without that, it'd be hard to imagine an alternative other than Traya being too much for Nihilus to handle at that point.

2. Except Sion knows Drain, so you're essentially suggesting that X and Y both have knives, lure said woman into the alley, and then only X does the stabbing.

Yes, Nihilus' Drain is infinitely more potent, but Sion still has Drain. I'd compare it to Kun + Kyp beating Luke or resurrecting the Sun Crusher, where the text notes Kyp's efforts being feeble in comparison to Kun's, but the effort's there all the same.

2. And knife or not, a person can kill another in a number of ways. So the ability to kill is there regardless. However I feel you'd only have a point if Sion being "armed" with drain was noted on.

Well that's not what I gather from the scene (where nowhere is Sion shown using the Force) or Avellone's description, where he stresses Sion's physical involvement. The key difference in your comparison however being that Kun needed Kyp regardless, Nihilus did not.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. Avellone also states definitively that Nihilus could have done it alone though, so I don't think there is any indication she was a threat to him. But yeah beating Traya into unconsciousness did appear to be the icing on the cake, as both a "physical reminder" as Avellone says and a means of finishing her off, that Nihilus didn't want to get his "hands dirty" doing.

2. And knife or not, a person can kill another in a number of ways. So the ability to kill is there regardless. However I feel you'd only have a point if Sion being "armed" with drain was noted on.

Well that's not what I gather from the scene (where nowhere is Sion shown using the Force) or Avellone's description, where he stresses Sion's physical involvement. The key difference in your comparison however being that Kun needed Kyp regardless, Nihilus did not.

1. Indeed. Regarding no indication of her being a threat - I mentioned that in the context of ignoring Avellone's comments, which kind of close the book on this.

2. I meant if she was found with only stab wounds, of course. We're taking that she was killed with a knife.

3. Nowhere is Nihilus shown stripping or draining Kreia, either. Regarding the flaw in my analogy - I'm only referring to power/effort levels.

Nihilus is solely credited with draining Traya in his section of the kotorcg. Not sure if Sion is ever credited as actually helping drain her at all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus is solely credited with draining Traya in his section of the kotorcg. Not sure if Sion is ever credited as actually helping drain her at all.

I posted a quote in the OP that says Nihilus "ousted Traya with the help of Sion", though that "help" is questionable as to what it relates to. It's also from Nihilus' section. In Traya's section, it states that her disciples turned on her and drained her powers.

That said, Avellone's quote does kind of put the brake on this discussion.

There are definite vagaries I admit, but yeah I think Avellone's statements give clarification.

They turn on her and drain her Force powers."

-- KotOR CG

Could not actually be clearer without sounding condescending.

It could be a lot clearer lol.