Exar Kun vs. Darth Revan (TP battle)

What, no? The text is worded so that Darth Traya is already Darth Traya when she falls to the dark side.

And no, because you can be referred to by your former name when as a Sith. Not the opposite though. 😬

Whatever the case, your argument, no matter how many times you state it, won't hold up.

There's no direct contradiction, and unless there is one, we're not retconning a source. That's ridiclous.

So, stop arguing the point and concede. Or, if you don't want to, just agree to disagree.

But if you expect on changing anything, you need a source that shows a direct contradiction. 👆

I didn't say we retconned the entire source - that's not how it works. But we retcon the Traya part. Also, Chronicles states that she was haunted by guilt, which would've lessened her willpower, so your comparison is pretty shitty either way.

And it's incredibly obvious that she didn't fall when she first started reading the hermetica, which is well after she first landed. So the whole "failed to shield her emotions" BS doesn't work with KotOR CG. She falls under a combination of Sith sorcery and interest in the dark side knowledge, not failing to shield her emotions from the nexus, which isn't even mentioned in KotOR CG. Considering that entire section is about how she becomes Darth Traya, you don't think it'd mention that if it was the way she fell?

And at the end of the day, Meetra did succeed in shielding her emotions from the nexus, so she did resist it.

What was the point of typing, like, another five sentences when I specifically said it would be pointless unless you bring forth a new argument.

But, shockingly, you don't, so move along. 👆

So it is retconned? Good 👆

And you haven't been able to counter Surik resisting the nexus - my whole point - so yeah, that's another concession.

No, it's not retconned. You failed once again to make even the slightest case.

And, like I said, Surik is a literal wound in the Force who feeds off death and is a living representation of Malachor.

The notion it affects her the same way is as laughable as your attempts to best me.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What was the point of typing, like, another five sentences when I specifically said it would be pointless unless you bring forth a new argument.

I brought up that the guilt renders your comparison flawed anyways, which I also did in another thread, and you failed to respond both times. If we're using Chronicles, then the comparison doesn't count since Kreia's willpower was compromised. If we're using KotORCG, then it's not the nexus, so your comparison's still flawed. Take your pick.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, it's not retconned. You failed once again to make even the slightest case.

Please show me the slightest semblance of her failing to shield her emotions and being mindraped by the nexus as soon as she lands on Malachor in the Campaign Guide.

And she evidently didn't fall (to that extent) when she first read the hermetica, so yeah, it's a retcon.

And, like I said, Surik is a literal wound in the Force who feeds off death and is a living representation of Malachor.

The notion it affects her the same way is as laughable as your attempts to best me.

What does her being a Wound have to do with resisting the nexus? Feeding off death means that she's immune to TP, now? She still had to "shield her emotions", like you claimed.

The fact Kreia has guilt shouldn't mean her willpower is entirely comprised. :lol;

And ****, it that's all it takes for Kreia to be so weak, then we might as well put her below Draagh now.

As if Revan didn't have guilt when, on Malachor, he decided he was going to commit mass genocide on both the Mandos and his own men.

It's a retarded argument.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The fact Kreia has guilt shouldn't mean her willpower is entirely comprised. :lol;

And ****, it that's all it takes for Kreia to be so weak, then we might as well put her below Draagh now.

I didn't say it was entirely compromised, but it obviously has an effect, so the comparison still doesn't work in the way you want it to.

As if Revan didn't have guilt when, on Malachor, he decided he was going to commit mass genocide on both the Mandos and his own men.

It's a retarded argument.

Umm, he didn't. That's the point - he had fallen to the point where he had no remorse for killing all of them.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Please show me the slightest semblance of her failing to shield her emotions and being mindraped by the nexus as soon as she lands on Malachor in the Campaign Guide

Ah, wait, the campaign guide doesn't tell the entire character's story. Right. 👆

Your beloved Chronicles repeatedly mentions Revan and Malak falling, including being corrupted. It also mentions that he had already fallen to the dark side by the time of Malachor.

So they fell as a process of the war, not Malachor. Big deal. The comparison doesn't count, lol.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Show me on the campaign guide of Revan where it mentions him going to Malachor, studying the teachings, and devising his plans for the rest of the war - an act that basically defined Revan's character until his death in SoR.

Ah, wait, the campaign guide doesn't tell the entire character's story. Right. 👆

Indeed it doesn't. It completely skips how Revan falls to the dark side. On the other hand:

Considering that entire section is about how she becomes Darth Traya, you don't think it'd mention that if it was the way she fell?

I mean, that would be the most important part.

Also:

Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, DARTH REVAN has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side.

-- Chronicles of the Old Republic

So he had already fallen to the dark side prior to the Battle of Malachor V. Concession accepted 👆

Oh my. This is hilarious.

Your new central argument is that due to the fact the text fails to mention it, it therefore must not have happened, completely ignoring the fact that the text completely ignores Revan's entire fall to the dark side on Malachor V. You ignore this fact by arguing that at least in the Darth Traya article, it makes some mention to her fall, but that point is moot because, like with Revan, it's clear it's not telling the whole story, so there can easily be pieces missing (that Chronicles clarifies).

Moving forward, you seem to believe that the fact Revan fell to the dark-side prior to the end of the Mandalorian Wars somehow wins your case, despite the fact that this is well known and specifically stated by me on both my Darth Revan overview thread and my summary of his story found on ComicVine's profile of him. So, I'm not sure how that remotely helps your point, but I find it hilarious you think it does. Revan fell to the dark-side during early-to-mid Mandalorian Wars.

And finally about Kreia, sure, she was haunted by guilt, and maybe that did impact her, but the notion she's going from resisting it to being dominated is completely extreme. And then about the Jedi Exile, I speculate her wound qualities allowed her to resist the nexus and effects of the planet in an unnatural way - similar to how she resisted Darth Nihilus' corruptive presence. This is supported by the fact the Revan novel fails to mention the corruptive nexus when Surik remembers her time on there.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Oh my. This is hilarious.

Your new central argument is that due to the fact the text fails to mention it, it therefore must not have happened, completely ignoring the fact that the text completely ignores Revan's entire fall to the dark side on Malachor V. You ignore this fact by arguing that at least in the Darth Traya article, it makes some mention to her fall, but that point is moot because, like with Revan, it's clear it's not telling the whole story, so there can easily be pieces missing (that Chronicles clarifies).

No, it's not that "there's some mention to her fall" - the entire section is clearly her backstory regarding how she fell. They'd include every little piece - even if not, they'd include the most important piece - her actually falling. That she falls through hermetica and sorcery rather than the nexus is clearly the point of the Campaign Guide's piece on her. But if you want it to be Chronicles' retconned way, then we can just agree to disagree.

Moving forward, you seem to believe that the fact Revan fell to the dark-side prior to the end of the Mandalorian Wars somehow wins your case, despite the fact that this is well known and specifically stated by me on both my Darth Revan overview there and my summary of his story found on ComicVine's profile of him. So, I'm not sure how that remotely helps your point, but I find it hilarious you think it does. Revan fell to the dark-side during early-to-mid Mandalorian Wars.

Lopsided comparison then, isn't it? Well, in Revan's case, it does mention him not being consumed by the nexus, so you're safe there - just don't bring up Malak's example, then.

And finally about Kreia, sure, she was haunted by guilt, and maybe that did impact her, but the notion she's going from resisting it to being dominated is completely extreme.

Not saying she resisted it, only that the comparison becomes even less fair. I don't think anyone would doubt Revan's superior willpower to Kreia, so that's conceded. The comparison between Malak and Kreia on Malachor V, however, is a different story.

The Exile's party also shielded their emotions just fine. So are you proposing that their willpower transcends Kreia's? The guilt probably does play quite a big part, now that I think about it - she was trying to make amends for Revan and distancing herself from the Jedi, and she was "haunted" by the guilt, so it'd make it a hell of a lot easier for her to fall to the dark side.

And then about the Jedi Exile, I speculate her wound qualities allowed her to resist the nexus and effects of the planet in an unnatural way - similar to how she resisted Darth Nihilus' corruptive presence. This is supported by the fact the Revan novel fails to mention the corruptive nexus when Surik remembers her time on there.

Considering Karpyshyn's ignorance of various facets of KotOR II, do you have a stronger basis for this? I mean, he didn't once mention Surik's prowess at forming Force Bonds, so I guess that doesn't exist either, huh? Kreia mentions using Malachor to test the Exile and see if she could "silence its beating heart" or something, so it's likely that she did have to confront the nexus.

Nihilus' corruptive presence worked on no one but non-Force sensitive minions who spent a protracted amount of time near him. Visas and Mandalore were also fine against him - the fight was obviously too short to actually cause any drastic effects on them.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
@Ant, I could see Revan Reborn having among the best willpower in the mythos, but Darth Revan? He broke free of Vitiate's hold...eventually.

As I already stated, the fact it doesn't mention it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. However, I just noticed something.

Even if we pretend that the nexus didn't dominate her, and rather, the Sith hermetica that was presented to her did, my argument still holds up. Revan personally established the Sith Assassins, and can be attributed to their corruption into the monsters we see in KotOR II. They were slaves to his will, tasked to hunt down Jedi and take them to Malachor V for corruption. The hermetic presented to Kreia is definitely something Revan has seen before. In fact, it's likely that Revan used the hermetica as a way to corrupt Sith Assassins to his cause - a cause of complete obedience to him.

"Led by a woman named Kreia, the rogue Jedi turned to the dark side teachings uncovered by Malak and Revan."
-- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

This quote states that Kreia's dark side teachings were already those found by Revan and Malak. Therefore, Revan seeing the Sith hermetica is indisputable. Unlike Kreia, who fell under its spell despite not wanting to, Revan and Malak were able to completely resist it. So, even according to KotOR CG, Revan and Malak's willpower is vastly greater than that of Kreia's.

And then about the Exile, I recall her having specific links to all her companions. It's just not the same, especially considering how she is growing in power as she slaughtered all the Sith present in the Trayus Academy - power that could strengthen the resolves and will of her companions. Marr was already corrupted by him, so I don't see your point regarding him. And then I believe Mandalore also had a link with the Exile, so it's not the same again.

Now that's something worth conceding to.

For the Exile, the bonds would've helped, but they did have to confront the nexus regardless.

Again with the retarded 'she feeds off death... er... that means she's constantly amped!'

Well, in fairness, Revan and Malak had already fallen to the dark side when they uncovered the teachings on Malachor, and Ant's beloved Chronicles confirms that Revan fell further. They didn't fall under the "wanting to destroy the Force" spell, though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan telepathically dominating hundreds of the Jedi's finest, albeit with a nexus, is better than whatever Kun did on Cinnagar and failing to affect any Jedi on Coruscant.

Lmfao. He used the nexus specifically to corrupt the Jedi, by raising its power from orbit. What utter lies. It is an excellent feat of manipulating Force energy but that doesn't change the fact he did nothing like what you just claimed.