Mara Jade Skywalker vs. Kyle Katarn vs. Ben Kenobi

Originally posted by SunRazer
Obi-Wan only mounted one successful offense when Vader thought he had him. Everything else was woefully inadequate.

As for the second part - you mean Starkiller? He made far more headway against Vader than Ben did.

Starkiller only could've pierced Vader's guard once, and even then only following up a lightning blast to Vader's side.

This shows how much Vader shat all over him:

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying.
--The Force Unleashed II

A disinterested, casual Vader effortlessly parried Starkiller's strikes yet he couldn't even warn off stormtroopers against Ben mmm

Originally posted by SunRazer
Obi-Wan in his prime doesn't have shit offense (heck, it's not "shit" even as an old man), but old Ben Kenobi isn't beating Mara/Kyle etc. by virtue of his offensive skills.

No but if you also pair his offensive skills with the best Soresu in history he can beat them. His Soresu also gives him an edge in a 3 way fight.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He's never once drawn upon Ataru in ANH and all supplementary sources relating to his duel with Vader only mention his Soresu. Moreover, sources mention that he had physically declined since RotS and grew out of practice, which probably explains why using Ataru wouldn't be the most sensible thing to do.

Qui-Gon doesn't have anything on Mara or Kyle. Ben's superiority over him doesn't put him over either.

Yes, and the same sources say that Vader is a shadow of his former self, haven't dueled anyone in years etc etc.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Starkiller only could've pierced Vader's guard once, and even then only following up a lightning blast to Vader's side.

This shows how much Vader shat all over him:

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying.
--The Force Unleashed II

A disinterested, casual Vader effortlessly parried Starkiller's strikes yet he couldn't even warn off stormtroopers against Ben

The move "seemed" that way - ie, SK's perspective, and it was "almost" casual. Besides, that's only two strikes. Vader blocks more from Ben in Death Star just as easily, if not moreso - the general message there is that apart from Vader almost letting down his guard at one point, Ben's attacks were absolutely pitiful. He was being driven back the whole time bar that one offensive reprieve when Vader got overconfident.

Vader being scared of what happened on Mustafar doesn't justify Ben winning here, lol. He just knew that in spite of greater skill, he could still lose if he let down his guard at any point like he did on Mustafar, that's all.

No but if you also pair his offensive skills with the best Soresu in history he can beat them. His Soresu also gives him an edge in a 3 way fight.

A three-way fight would go poorly for him. He can hold off their attacks, sure, but in that scenario, he absolutely wouldn't be able to make any offensive headway (I do think Kyle + Mara > ANH Vader, definitely) and he would certainly tire in due time - before he could afford to counter anything. Unless, of course, Kyle and Mara primarily focused on each other, but I can't see that happening.

Yes, and the same sources say that Vader is a shadow of his former self, haven't dueled anyone in years etc etc.

I'm referring to Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force (2010), not Fightsaber, but that supports my point too.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The move "seemed" that way - ie, SK's perspective, and it was "almost" casual. Besides, that's only two strikes. Vader blocks more from Ben in Death Star just as easily, if not moreso - the general message there is that apart from Vader almost letting down his guard at one point, Ben's attacks were absolutely pitiful. He was being driven back the whole time bar that one offensive reprieve when Vader got overconfident.

Vader being scared of what happened on Mustafar doesn't justify Ben winning here, lol. He just knew that in spite of greater skill, he could still lose if he let down his guard at any point like he did on Mustafar, that's all.

Vader was described as blocking 1 strike easily from Ben and you label his offense (agaisnt Vader) pitiful, yet you don't do the same with Starkiller. Okay.

Just for reference here are all the times Kenobi were on the offensive:

Executing a move of incredible swiftness for one so old, Kenobi lunged at the massive shape. Vader blocked the stab with equal speed, riposting with a counterslash that Kenobi barely parried. Another parry and Kenobi countered again, using this opportunity to move around the towering Dark Lord.

They continued to trade blows, with the old man now backing toward the hangar.
--A New Hope

"Only a master of evil, Darth." With that, Obi-Wan stepped in and cut.

Vader blocked the attack easily. Obi-Wan attacked again, and again, Vader blocked each strike.
--Death Star

Obi-Wan lunged again, attacking, but Vader was ready. Their sabers clashed, sparks spewed, the stink of ozone wafted over them, but Vader stood his ground. The blades slid along each other's length, then stopped, bound together in the magnetic handle guards, the men face-to-face.
--Death Star

Another exchange - four, five, six attacks and blocks - and Vader knew the old man was weakening. The Force might be strong in Obi-Wan, but the dark side was stronger in Vader. It let him anticipate his adversary's strikes and counter them almost before they began.
--Death Star

But just as he was ready to deliver the final strike, Obi-Wan managed a fast series of attacks, and Vader had to move quickly to avoid the strikes. Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader's part could still be fatal.
--Death Star

There's also this web comic where Kenobi gains ground:

Based on what would Kyle and Mara be significantly better than that?

Originally posted by SunRazer
A three-way fight would go poorly for him. He can hold off their attacks, sure, but in that scenario, he absolutely wouldn't be able to make any offensive headway (I do think Kyle + Mara > ANH Vader, definitely) and he would certainly tire in due time - before he could afford to counter anything. Unless, of course, Kyle and Mara primarily focused on each other, but I can't see that happening.

Well it's a 3 way fight not 2vs1. As the smartest duelist here Ben can manipulate the engagement to his own ends.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm referring to Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force (2010), not Fightsaber, but that supports my point too.

Quote?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Vader was described as blocking 1 strike easily from Ben and you label his offense (agaisnt Vader) pitiful, yet you don't do the same with Starkiller. Okay.

Obviously Starkiller's attack there was pitiful. But I'm not debating him here - and if I was, I'd have him lose as well.

Based on what would Kyle and Mara be significantly better than that?

Of the quotes you listed, only the last quote was the one I'm referring to - successful offensive. The rest were him attacking and failing miserably.

The comic is depicting Ben and Vader fighting on equal ground, right? At first, I thought Ben was using some sort of Ataru to leap over Vader. Doesn't seem that way on reconsideration.

Significantly better than what? I never used those words.

Well it's a 3 way fight not 2vs1. As the smartest duelist here Ben can manipulate the engagement to his own ends.

How so? There's only so much he can court when he's being ganged up on (since Mara and Kyle know each other).

Quote?

Here:

A generation later, Obi-Wan Kenobi would face Darth Vader once again. While Vader wanted revenge, Obi-Wan was focused on buying time for his friends - including Luke Skywalker. Their duel was careful and measured compared to their previous meeting. Obi-Wan's movements were slowed by age and lack of practice; Darth Vader - recalling the grievous injuries he suffered during their last encounter - fought his former Master with apprehension, while his cybernetic body reduced his actions. Ultimately, Obi-Wan deliberately dropped his defenses, and Darth Vader cut through him, but the Jedi Master mysteriously vanished into the Force.

--Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

Originally posted by SunRazer
Significantly better than what? I never used those words.

Well not significantly, but in your first post you said you doubt Kenobi has the offense to beat either, so you think the other 2 has the offense. Why do you think Kyle and Mara's offense would be any more successful against Vader?

Originally posted by SunRazer
How so? There's only so much he can court when he's being ganged up on (since Mara and Kyle know each other).

Well I assumed they can't team up, otherwise this wouldn't be a 3way fight, but a 2vs1 then 1vs1.

If they do team up then yeah I dount Ben could win, but that defeats the purpose of making this thread a 3way fight and could've been just Mara vs Kyle.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Well not significantly, but in your first post you said you doubt Kenobi has the offense to beat either, so you think the other 2 has the offense. Why do you think Kyle and Mara's offense would be any more successful against Vader?

I also said that Ben's defense would hold them off as well, only that they could outlast him.

Well I assumed they can't team up, otherwise this wouldn't be a 3way fight, but a 2vs1 then 1vs1.

If they do team up then yeah I dount Ben could win, but that defeats the purpose of making this thread a 3way fight and could've been just Mara vs Kyle.

I'm going off a morals on approach. It's the most likely alliance. Without it, this fight is pretty unpredictable and it's hard to draw a winner.

Yeah, but with an alliance it's basically Kyle vs Mara thread, not Kyle vs Ben vs Mara.

I'd probably still support Mara. Her stamina seems the best here and she's likely just as skilled as Ben and more powerful. If she comes out of the initial brawl, she'll be the best-suited for the remaining one-versus-one. Otherwise, I don't know who wins.

In what book Mara fights Caedus?

Sacrifice, and I'm not basing my opinion off that fight.