Originally posted by Digi
If you think it might be worth your time, here's an excellent video that extrapolates on what I said:
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Love that video. A classic of the genre.
Yeah, I've posted it like half a dozen times in this forum throughout the years. It's amazingly thorough and cogent.
Originally posted by riv6672Conditions aboard a slave ship? The Holocaust? Jordanian pilot Lt. Muath al-Kaseasbeh being burnt to death in a cage? Any young child that's been kidnapped, raped and tortured?
I was wondering, actually wondering, if any atheist here could point to a specific event they credited with disproving God's existence.
I ask because the question, IMHO, asks for the proving of a negative which, in this instance, seems pre-set to show "it can't be done, so you atheists lose."
I am not an atheist, btw. And while I believe the points I've raised in past discussion have some merit (and some have been raised as well by others in this thread, eg, requiring material proof of an immaterial entity not being fair), I also readily admit that in any debate between an atheist and theist, the lack of *evidence* weighs heavily in the atheist's favor, and that for the theist it is an uphill fight every inch of the way.
In any event, if I may: simply for purposes of illustration, what (fictional) event might you conjure up as an example?
Originally posted by Mindship
Conditions aboard a slave ship? The Holocaust? Jordanian pilot Lt. Muath al-Kaseasbeh being burnt to death in a cage? Any young child that's been kidnapped, raped and tortured?
Furthermore Christians don't think of God as good because he eliminates evil wherever he can, but instead because he offers an avenue to a world without evil.
Originally posted by Mindship
Conditions aboard a slave ship? The Holocaust? Jordanian pilot Lt. Muath al-Kaseasbeh being burnt to death in a cage? Any young child that's been kidnapped, raped and tortured?
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?"
The Problem of Evil is not really a good argument against the Christian God. The Bible is very specific on that man—through free will—brought evil into the world. If God would've made man incapable of committing evil then it would be a compromise of his free will.
This never made any sense. If there is such a thing as free will, then there is no such thing as an all-powerful god, and vice versa.
If someone knows what you are going to do before you do it..if they know what everyone everywhere is going to do before they do it..then free will doesn't exist.
A person would have to choose the path God has already seen, because if they don't he is wrong and thus not a God at all.
Also in the bible the evil is also brought into the world because God wanted to keep us naive as f*ck. But you see it's never quite framed that way. It's framed in a way that us being ignorant was a GOOD thing because only God should have knowledge while we should run around naked frolicking in the fields all day being impressed by the shape of the clouds.
Originally posted by Surtur
If someone knows what you are going to do before you do it..if they know what everyone everywhere is going to do before they do it..then free will doesn't exist.
God per definition knows ALL possible outcomes simultaneously, and thus whatever you choose, he already knows the outcome 👆 Thus he knows what bring you good in the long run, and what does not.
Originally posted by Stigma
Only if you believe that there is only one path, but we know, for example from scientific extrapolation, that each decision has at least two possible outcomes (yes vs no situation), and from thee then it branches out to other outcomes and then to other outcomes etc. Even the smalles decision creates alternate possibilities, but only one solidifies into the real world.(I said yes, rather than saying no etc.)God per definition knows ALL possible outcomes simultaneously, and thus whatever you choose, he already knows the outcome 👆
Why is this only if you believe there is a single path? Why does the number of paths matter if God knows every single one of them?
Also someone truly all knowing would always know which of the two possible outcomes would happen.
Originally posted by Surtur
Why is this only if you believe there is a single path? Why does the number of paths matter if God knows every single one of them?Also someone truly all knowing would always know which of the two possible outcomes would happen.
Yes, God knows all possibilites and that does not negate free will.
You choose whatever you want. God knows if your choice is for better or worse, but he does not infringe on your free will.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?"This never made any sense. If there is such a thing as free will, then there is no such thing as an all-powerful god, and vice versa.
Lmao at applying human notions of morality to an all powerful all seeing deity.
Originally posted by Mindship
^ Agreed. But I wasn't aware that the OP was referring specifically or exclusively to the Christian God. My bad if I missed that. Generally, in these threads (unless specifically mentioned), I interpret *God* more generically.Interesting: when I tried to quote your post, that function didn't work.
Originally posted by Mindship
I ask because the question, IMHO, asks for the proving of a negative which, in this instance, seems pre-set to show "it can't be done, so you atheists lose."
For example, logical negative: married bachelors do not exist. We can prove that.
Or empirical negative: ther are no dinosaurs living in Europe in this day and age. We can prove that.
Originally posted by Mindship
I also readily admit that in any debate between an atheist and theist, the lack of *evidence* weighs heavily in the atheist's favor, and that for the theist it is an uphill fight every inch of the way.
Also, philosophical and logical claims constitute proof too. And there is a number of premises that show belief in God is supported.
Moreover, one could say that the existence of reality itself is a proof enough that a Superior Being exists (not necessarily Christian God) aka an argument from the origins of the universe.
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Lmao at applying human notions of morality to an all powerful all seeing deity.
I too find the idea ridiculous. However, the God described in the Christian bible undoubtedly does act on love, anger, so on, and frequently so. He also supposedly wrote an objective sense of morality (his law) into the depths of our hearts, besides. I don't think it's any more inconsistent to call him malevolent because of the misfortunate than it is to call him benevolent because of the fortunate.