Originally posted by chingchangwalla
People like Ziggy?
People who don't subscribe to the PT/OT wank.
Your intellectual superiors?
Intellect is measured by a lot more things than the ability to debate fictional characters. But if it came down to it, then yes, he'd probably beat me in a debate.
Also, why are you kissing his ass all of a sudden?
Regardless of quote wars, Kun still wins. Why? Since every piece of misinformation for Caedus has been addressed, we have sith lord not worthy of a mantle to top the elites. His turbolaser deflection feat is barely marked above Satele Shan blocking Malgus with her bare hands, there is no legitimate source that claiming he's > Vader and there's no solid proof he can dismantle Katarn in under a minute. The same goes for him 'matching Luke'. Every one who has had look at the context surrounding Jacen has finished by saying- yeah he's not as great as I thought. Kun on the other hand has been meet with an honest effort to analyse, contextualise and examine his feats. Even naysayers have had to begrudgingly accept that DE Luke tier's will get dominated. And every possible comparison in combat you can make between these two works in Kun's favour.
Well Ziggy, I don't know enough about Caedus to comment, but Exar certainly isn't dominating DE Luke-tier people. The fight in JA was circumstancial; Luke only lost because he was confronted by a technique he had no experience with. As for more conventional attacks, he resisted easily, only being unable to fight back because of the pain.
Originally posted by Azronger
[B]Well Ziggy, I don't know enough about Caedus to comment
Putting you in the same category as every other Caedus supporter in this thread.
but Exar certainly isn't dominating DE Luke-tier people.
So what qualifies him as someone who can dominate the likes of Luke? If the text of a book describing a loquacious manner where Luke needs every defensive technique Yoda taught - implying he knew more than the Jedi-standard book of spells - and still gets taken out by Kun, doesn't imply obvious superiority, then what does? Do you have any proof that goes against the text? Other than your assertive opinion? Because anyone is capable of asserting themselves. For example, Exar should capable of dominating the Son and Ableoth at the same time. Don't ask me for a structured argument on the matter, I won't be providing one.
The fight in JA was circumstancial
Yes the fight was circumstantial, the circumstance was that Kun could only use a fraction of his true power and parcel segment of his abilties. If I was to argue insomuch that Revan defeated Malak, you wouldn't attempt to rebut that by explaining how the Star Forge makes the fight unfair, would you? Revan had the odds stacked against him, as did Kun. Both emerged for a short lived victory.
Luke only lost because he was confronted by a technique he had no experience with.
Well in that case, Exar should just dominate everyone and anyone who doesn't know the specific counter-sign, despite your theory not being supported by text. I suppose you believe Kun simply overrides natural talent and raw power... even when you know :
1) Luke has his own set of defensive showings
2) That even his father couldn't replicate
3) And that sometimes, oftentimes, defence against the dark arts is as simple as drawing upon the light side of the Force TM .
An undertaking that shouldn't be too difficult or complex for someone who could use the light side of the Force to sever Palpatine's control over a space distorting storm that was about to engulf an entire fleet. Now Kun might have conjured a technique that Luke, by merit of knowledge, couldn't counter. But that by itself, and just by itself, means Kun can dominate people of DE Luke's caliber. Caedus doesn't remotely compare to Kun in knowledge of the Sith arts, so he should just be taken out as easily.
Might as well engage for the heck of it.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
His turbolaser deflection feat is barely marked above Satele Shan blocking Malgus with her bare hands,
I'd say it is more than "barely", when he's casually deflecting blasts that chew up starfighters, and disarm beings as powerful as Lowbacca or Jaina -- both of whom are inferrably, and by feats, insanely strong.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
there is no legitimate source that claiming he's > Vader
That depends. Early publisher summary's of LotF compare Jacen to Vader:
" Determined to root out those behind the mayhem, Jacen follows a trail of cryptic clues to a dark rendezvous with the most shocking of revelations—while Luke grapples with something even more troubling: dream visions of a shadowy figure whose Force power and ruthlessness remind him of Darth Vader—a lethal enemy who strikes like a dark spirit on a mission of doom. An agent of evil who, if Luke's visions come to pass, will bring untold pain to the Jedi Master—and to the entire galaxy.
[...]
Meanwhile Luke grapples with something even more troubling: dream visions of a shadowy figure whose Force power and ruthlessness remind him of Darth Vader."
-- Legacy of the Force: Betrayal(Paperback and Internal flap)
Then later note how he "grows by the day":
"For as Jacen Solo's dark powers grow stronger under Dark Lady Lumiya, and his influence over Ben Skywalker becomes more insidious, Luke's concern for his nephew forces him into a life-and-death struggle against his fiercest foe, and Han and Leia Solo find themselves at the mercy of their deadliest enemy. . . their son."
-- Legacy of the Force: Tempest Publisher Summary
"Fighting alongside the Corellian rebels, Han and Leia are locked in a war against their son Jacen, who grows more powerful and more dangerous with each passing day.
-- Legacy of the Force: Fury Publisher Summary
Just to later note him surpassing his grandfather:
"[I] For Caedus is a scion of both the Skywalker and Solo bloodlines whose command of the Force surpasses even that of his grandfather Darth Vader."
-- Legacy of the Force: Invincible(Internal Flap)
Now I'm not one for using Publisher Summaries assuming there's an inconsistency, but here, the authors and the publishers(both of which LucasArts approved) are consistent in their idea that Jacen is greater than his grandfather.
Now, are Publisher Summaries canon, or should they be taken as such? I mean they can, even though they have dubious canonicity, if they remain consistent with the source material, and the publishers and authors seem damn confident in saying Caedus is now greater than Vader. And since you and your followers totted around Marka being the MVP ancient Sith cuz of Publisher Summaries, then I fail to see why the same cannot be applied to Caedus.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
there's no solid proof he can dismantle Katarn in under a minute.
Except, of course, a noticeably injured and exhausted Jacen would've amputated him in less than 15 seconds and handily flicked aside for avoided all of his attacks, while simultaneously dispatching three other opponents.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The same goes for him 'matching Luke'.
He certainly didn't match Luke, by any means. However, he did tag Luke several times during the combat and even kept him briefly pinned at one point.
By all means, he performed pretty well; better than most would.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Every one who has had look at the context surrounding Jacen has finished by saying- yeah he's not as great as I thought. Kun on the other hand has been meet with an honest effort to analyse, contextualise and examine his feats.
So, what does this have to do with anything? People underestimated Exar, and overestimated Caedus? Whoopie... That still changes little in the way of who is the superior in this contest.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Even naysayers have had to begrudgingly accept that DE Luke tier's will get dominated. And every possible comparison in combat you can make between these two works in Kun's favour.
Despite the fact that Luke shielded himself from a blast that utterly destroyed Ood Bnar, which neither a supernova nor Exar Kun could do?
"Jem: Alive... I'm alive! How...?
Luke: The Force... I used it to shield us."
-- Dark Empire Audio Drama 2
^ Credit to Azronger for the above scan
Actually, when you think about it, Sedriss managed to damage Bnar whereas Kun couldn't, and yet...
Kinda funny, really. It is also amusing you believe Kun catching Luke off-guard on a nexus, then overpowering him with the aid of Kyp, and spells Luke didn't know how to counter due to a lack of knowledge at the time, would somehow translate to him dominating Luke on fair terms.
Wollf, here's more:
Sedriss followed Skywalker and another Jedi Knight, Kam Solusar, to the devastated world of Ossus, once a Jedi stronghold. There, Skywalker hoped to retrieve ancient Jedi artifacts, but before he
could uncover much, Sedriss confronted him. Sedriss
found himself overwhelmed by Skywalker's control of the Force.
-Dark Side Sourcebook
