Originally posted by Nai
Question: What stops Dooku from simply electrocuting Vader with Force Lightning in the Force / All Out parts of that versus fight?Canon Vader is not exactly the lightning tanking guy we see in TFU II, is he?
Not sure about Force only, but safe to say Vader could block it with his Saber considering even Anakin could.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not sure about Force only, but safe to say Vader could block it with his Saber considering even Anakin could.
And, in the situations where Anakin could not ?
Then one must remember how good Dooku is at performing Force attacks one assailant, while fending off another with his lightsaber.Click
You might have to remind me on how good Vader's reactions are, because I seem to remember two instances in canon, where relative noobs (Ashoka & ESB Luke) have tagged him with their lightsabers.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
And, in the situations where Anakin could not ?
So you're saying it's Possible Dooku might still get in a blast of Lightning which hits Vader at some point during the fight... Sure.. It's possible.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Then one must remember how good Dooku is at performing Force attacks one assailant, while fending off another with his lightsaber.Click
Of course those are combatants who are not close to Vader's league that he's able to do that to.
Dooku wasn't however able to pull that off against ROTS Anakin or Yoda, who were just allover Dooku in Sabers.
Still I admit, Dooku is skilled like that and that it's possible for him to get in a Lightning shot. But honestly it's just as possible that Vader force chokes Dooku. Vader might soak up a Lightning blast, but if Vader force chokes Dooku, then that's it for him.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
You might have to remind me on how good Vader's reactions are, because I seem to remember two instances in canon, where relative noobs (Ashoka & ESB Luke) have tagged him with their lightsabers.
We all know Vader was taking it easy on ESB Luke, and could have killed him several times before he got hit.
As for Ahsoka.. Noob? She was stalemating Darth Maul 😬
Originally posted by NaiThat glow stick he likes to carry around would be a start, that the Force barrier that protected him from the destruction of a Sith super weapon. 👆
Question: What stops Dooku from simply electrocuting Vader with Force Lightning in the Force / All Out parts of that versus fight?Canon Vader is not exactly the lightning tanking guy we see in TFU II, is he?
Originally posted by NaiHorrendous point since he just had his hand cut off and he about to hurl Palpatine to his death. Is he one handed for the fight ? Didn't Kenobi just casually deflect his fl in AOTC ? Dis I be ours de acting from Nai as I've pointed out. Facts always destroy your theoretical and conjecture based rants.
Question: What stops Dooku from simply electrocuting Vader with Force Lightning in the Force / All Out parts of that versus fight?Canon Vader is not exactly the lightning tanking guy we see in TFU II, is he?
Originally posted by Darth Thor
So you're saying it's Possible Dooku might still get in a blast of Lightning which hits Vader at some point during the fight... Sure.. It's possible.
It certainly is possible, probable or perhaps even very likely. One has to remember that with every thematic saber-lock, also comes an electrocution opportunity.
Of course those are combatants who are not close to Vader's league that he's able to do that to.
Not close to Vader's league? You'll have to define who sets the parameters for said 'league', and why these two aren't close. You can also explain to me how Vader fights the Ventress/Savage duo together, and survives.
Dooku wasn't however able to pull that off against ROTS Anakin or Yoda, who were just allover Dooku in Sabers.
A premise resting solely on one's blind faith for material that was written about the movies, that is not the movies. What you must understand Thor, is that any source detailing the films is merely an interpretation of events that happen on screen. They can often be true, but If they conflict with the movie in question or Lucas' statements, then they are - as deemed by LFL - undesirable.
What are the facts?
1) Just as Kit Fisto did not grow two heads, one severed on Palaptine's desk in the Novel, and the other still attached to his lifeless body in the films, Anakin never did get the upper-hand on Dooku. That is until the latter attempted Dun Moch, anyhow. Dooku had no problem with his strength combined with Kenobi's, and he had no problem flinging back Skywalker while Force-choking his master.
2) Yoda is quite a different story altogether and not really comparable to Vader
Still I admit, Dooku is skilled like that and that it's possible for him to get in a Lightning shot. But honestly it's just as possible that Vader force chokes Dooku. Vader might soak up a Lightning blast, but if Vader force chokes Dooku, then that's it for him.
The difference is Thor, is that the Count can be very good at exploiting these opportunities as they arise, and unlike Vader, he's shown a consistent track-record of dominating people with the Force, while lightsabering in succession. Vader can boast what exactly? Choking Admiral Ozzel? Hurling debris at a Neophyte Luke? And despite facing relatively weak opponents, he's not doing much mid-battle Force choking. So what makes you think he can do so to the Count?
We all know Vader was taking it easy on ESB Luke, and could have killed him several times before he got hit.
Not having the intent to kill Luke, is quite different from maintaining a competent defense. I wonder how you think this is a valid excuse for Vader, and his inability to parry strikes from inexperienced foes.
As for Ahsoka.. Noob? She was stalemating Darth Maul 😬
Well, exactly.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
It certainly is possible, probable or perhaps even very likely. One has to remember that with every thematic saber-lock, also comes an electrocution opportunity.
Sure.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Not close to Vader's league? You'll have to define who sets the parameters for said 'league', and why these two aren't close. You can also explain to me how Vader fights the Ventress/Savage duo together, and survives.
Well you know, given Maul stomped Savage pretty easily and admits his inferiority to Vader.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
A premise resting solely on one's blind faith for material that was written about the movies, that is not the movies. What you must understand Thor, is that any source detailing the films is merely an interpretation of events that happen on screen. They can often be true, but If they conflict with the movie in question or Lucas' statements, then they are - as deemed by LFL - undesirable.What are the facts?
1) Just as Kit Fisto did not grow two heads, one severed on Palaptine's desk in the Novel, and the other still attached to his lifeless body in the films, Anakin never did get the upper-hand on Dooku. That is until the latter attempted Dun Moch, anyhow. Dooku had no problem with his strength combined with Kenobi's, and he had no problem flinging back Skywalker while Force-choking his master.
2) Yoda is quite a different story altogether and not really comparable to Vader
No I'm just talking about the movies. The fights where Dooku was overwhelmed. Did he force push or shoot lightning at Yoda mid-Saber fight? Or at ROTS Anakin?
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The difference is Thor, is that the Count can be very good at exploiting these opportunities as they arise, and unlike Vader, he's shown a consistent track-record of dominating people with the Force, while lightsabering in succession. Vader can boast what exactly? Choking Admiral Ozzel? Hurling debris at a Neophyte Luke? And despite facing relatively weak opponents, he's not doing much mid-battle Force choking. So what makes you think he can do so to the Count?
Right, but when Vader is using TK to crush AT-AT's, you really going to tell me he's not a superior telekinetic to Dooku, or that he wouldn't crush those same Jedi/Sith with TK that Dooku did?
Add that to a force enraged Savage Force choking Dooku and Ventress, and a force enraged Ventress force choking Anakin and Obi-Wan.. Then think that Sidious was able to Force choke Dooku from another system, then yeah I can't help but thinking that Vader Force Choking Dooku is a real possibility.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Not having the intent to kill Luke, is quite different from maintaining a competent defense. I wonder how you think this is a valid excuse for Vader, and his inability to parry strikes from inexperienced foes.
It's a valid excuse because Luke could have been dead multiple time. In fact he could have had his limbs chopped off just earlier when Vader had him on the floor saying "you're beaten."
So he keeps letting Luke off, then eventually gets hit once (by the guy whose basically the next Chosen One), and you're really going to use that as proof that Vader's not good 😬
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Well, exactly.
Yeah she stalemated Maul who stomped Opress with ease decades earlier, and seemingly only grows in power over time.
Also look how Vader handled Kanan with one arm. Can't really say Kanan's a nobody anymore. Now that we know the GI he defeated was a Jedi Knight and a Temple Guard, and what he accomplished against Maul.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Sure.
So it is a concession.
Well you know, given Maul stomped Savage pretty easily and admits his inferiority to Vader.
And that might be a muddy comparison, because I doubt that Vader can handle a Savage in such a manner. Which is particularly the case if the Nightbrother wants to harm him. Consider for a moment, that Obi Wan is a rather long way from his prime when challenging Vader in A New Hope, yet in the past, he's been disarmed by Savage on one occasion, soundly bested by Maul on another and has only come of better against the two with favorable circumstances. Savage has also given Ventress problems on his own, and Ventress herself has presented a large threat to almost everyone on the order, including Kenobi. If it's true that Obi-wan is no longer in his glory-years, why does he evade such an imminent stomp from Vader? Of whom by order of scaling, should be able to steamroll Kenobi?
And their rests the inherent problem with inscrutable a>b>c logic. You're cherry picking the fights favorable to your conclusion, while overlooking ones that aren't. More importantly, you're ignoring the circumstances. When Savage decides to 'attack' Maul, do you really think he's doing so with the intention to hurt his brother? Or... is he approaching the fight half-hardheartedly, not drawing upon his inner hatred as to bulldoze Maul, like he does with most of his opponents? Anyhow, you now have a reasonable answer to why Maul can so easily suppress his brother in that situation. I do think however, that a death-match between the two would look very different.
No I'm just talking about the movies. The fights where Dooku was overwhelmed. Did he force push or shoot lightning at Yoda mid-Saber fight?
Well if you didn't realize, Yoda is a little different to Vader in both style and stature. Yoda comes with powers that can efficiently repel Dooku's, and likely has the most impressive use of augmentation in his time. Yoda's swordplay alone was enough to leave Palpatine disarmed - according to the ROTS script. And we do see on-screen, that the Emperor has conveniently lost his lightsaber at some point during the fight. Hopefully you can see why an assault from Vader, may not be quite the same as one from Yoda. Catching my drift?
Or at ROTS Anakin?
It is still the case. The soon-to-be Vader is far more aggressive there than at any point during his career. The final nail in the coffin, hits when Anakin enters the 'zone'. But we also know that Luke Skywalker can present own version of the 'zone', which was catalyzed in almost the exact same manner, and used to stomp Vader just as well. One can only speculate the disparities, but Anakin still has a stronger Force potential than his son, and is almost certainly a more refined duelist. At the end of the fight, Dooku has to use every bit of Force power possible just to maintain a steady augmentation, he could have attempted some sort of distraction with the Force, but his opponent (zonakin) is so much better, that it's a useless suggestion. Unless you are trying to imply that the post-suit shell of his former self, is on level with Anakin's destruction incarnate?