Legends Dooku vs Canon Vader

Right, but when Vader is using TK to crush AT-AT's, you really going to tell me he's not a superior telekinetic to Dooku, or that he wouldn't crush those same Jedi/Sith with TK that Dooku did?

You are quite correct.

Vader can manipulate rather large (and bulky) inanimate objects with his telekinesis. That is to say, he tends to manipulate larger and even bulkier inanimate objects with the Force, than Dooku does - particularly when focused solely on such a task.

But do you suppose that such feats allow him to dominate people, who have not messed around with Imperial Walkers? Are you suggesting that his non-combative feats against defunct objects - of which neither have the ability nor the inclination to protect themselves - is indicative of how well he does against a living, breathing Force wielder? Because I’d have to disagree. I’d have to tell you, that in this case, size matters not.

Par example : K’kruhk has shown to be rather proficient at moving big objects with the Force too, even when big objects are producing some form of resistance - such as spaced-aged engine thrusters. It didn’t however, help him against Grevious , the ‘non force sensitive’ deuling-threat at that time. It also didn’t help him much against Quinlan Vos, of whom Dooku is shown dealing with , pretty Forcefully. If controlling large and bulky inanimate objects was the pinnacle of Force mastery, why is K’kruhk losing to a defenseless robo-man, or coming off worse in a Force contest with Quinlan? Why is Dooku; save for a better term, shitting on all the aforementioned? Collary to this point, why does Vader not retrieve his falling son, when he’s used the Force to control larger objects? Why can he not subdue any of his opponents with the Force, as Dooku does 90% of the time?

Add that to a force enraged Savage Force choking Dooku and Ventress, and a force enraged Ventress force choking Anakin and Obi-Wan. then yeah I can't help but thinking that Vader Force Choking Dooku is a real possibility.

I’d explain why there might be a few details missing here, but on the contrary, the premise in question is not proof of your conclusion. Rather that it concludes why anyone can ‘ragdoll’ anyone. Then I suppose a charitable user might attest to real possibility of Dooku Force choking Vader. And that if it came down to who was more likely to use that power in a duel, then Dooku would win on those grounds.

Then think that Sidious was able to Force choke Dooku from another system,

Yes. I was once patient enough to explain why this isn't relevent, an explanation directed at you. Please don’t make me do it again.

It's a valid excuse because Luke could have been dead multiple time. In fact he could have had his limbs chopped off just earlier when Vader had him on the floor saying "you're beaten." So he keeps letting Luke off, then eventually gets hit once

We’ll you see, I doubt that it is a valid excuse. Dooku himself has a habit of playing with his food, or ‘toying’ with less experienced foes. That is by no means their invitation to tag him with a lightsaber, though. In the end, your argument is that vader is not good enough to maintain a valiant defense, against someone he does not want to kill..

(by the guy whose basically the next Chosen One), and you're really going to use that as proof that Vader's not good 😬

I certainly could DarthThor, but that is not what I’m trying to prove, and is therfore a reductio ad absurdum. The very nature of this dispute, was whether or not Vader can block Dooku’s lightning, your conclusion is that he’s not.

Yeah she stalemated Maul who stomped Opress with ease decades earlier,

Already dealt with.

and seemingly only grows in power over time.

Define the word ‘power’. If power means ‘knowledge’ in the Force, then prove that the accumulated knowledge has made him a better combatant. Prove that, for example, Maul has grown in a way that translates into physical grandeur, rather than the more logical explanation that, much like Kenobi, his skills have declined due to lack of training, lack of some other duelist he can practice with in the Galaxy.

Also look how Vader handled Kanan with one arm. Can't really say Kanan's a nobody anymore. Now that we know the GI he defeated was a Jedi Knight and a Temple Guard, and what he accomplished against Maul. [/B]

Debating is not about naming every character that pops-up in your head. You to create links between these characters, and present them in a way that establishes Vader. Tano, Kanan, the Grand Inquisitor and the aged Maul might as well be non-entities. While Dooku was just capable of stomping everyone bar Yoda, Mace and an enraged Anakin in the ‘prime of the Jedi’.

Originally posted by carthage
Vader's force feats are well above Dooku, adding in his strength advantage and he should take this in a stellar fight

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He was able to power through Sidious's lightning well enough to pick him up with one arm and throw him down a shaft even in canon. I doubt Dooku could get a protracted enough blast on Vader to end him.

Originally posted by NTJack0
Vader handily.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vader, obviously.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Vader in all, because he's better.

On a side note, stop being fapboys.

Dooku can certainly use FL in the heat of battle as seen in TCW and it would most likely fry Vaders suit. Vader didn't "power through" the Emperors FL he grabbed him and quickly (3 seconds tops) tossed him into the reactor shaft, immediately afterwards his life support is failing and he's slowly dying, certainly not in any condition to fight anybody so yeah, FL could definitely work in Dookus favour.

Funnily enough about Dooku is that the novel of ROTS paints him in a much worse light than the movie does. In the film he handles Obi and Ani with utter ease up until Anakin zones out and bested him while the novel makes it seem like as if Dooku is up shits creek from the outset of the fight...

Ironic, the legends Dooku was picked for better feats but he fares way worse than his canon counterpart in his measuring stick battle.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Not sure about Force only, but safe to say Vader could block it with his Saber considering even Anakin could.

Except in the situation where he couldn't? 😉

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That glow stick he likes to carry around would be a start, that the Force barrier that protected him from the destruction of a Sith super weapon. 👆

Force barrier that protected him from the destruction of a Sith super weapon? When did that happen?

^ Rebels Season 2 finale I'm guessing.

That said I'm sure the first Marvel Star Wars and Vader comics had him using force barrier . But would need to go back and check.

Originally posted by Nai
Force barrier that protected him from the destruction of a Sith super weapon? When did that happen?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXiwr25OU_w

And yeah, he has various barrier feats in the Marvel comics as well.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
In Rebels, he's caught in the center of a explosion of dark side energy, and emerges alive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXiwr25OU_w

And yeah, he has various barrier feats in the Marvel comics as well.

Seems legit.

Guess I need to watch "Rebels"...

Ziggystardust I don't have time right now, but will get back to you.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
So it is a concession.

I concede that's it's a possibility, given it's happened. But I don't concede it's a probability considering how often he's been able to get a direct lightning shot.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
And that might be a muddy comparison, because I doubt that Vader can handle a Savage in such a manner. Which is particularly the case if the Nightbrother wants to harm him. Consider for a moment, that Obi Wan is a rather long way from his prime when challenging Vader in A New Hope, yet in the past, he's been disarmed by Savage on one occasion, soundly bested by Maul on another and has only come of better against the two with favorable circumstances. Savage has also given Ventress problems on his own, and Ventress herself has presented a large threat to almost everyone on the order, including Kenobi. If it's true that Obi-wan is no longer in his glory-years, why does he evade such an imminent stomp from Vader? Of whom by order of scaling, should be able to steamroll Kenobi?

Not sure why you would doubt Vader easily handling Opress when both Maul and Obi-Wan have done so. And given Savage has literally no advantage over Vader in a fight. Savage's strengths are physical strength and powerful TK.

Vader not only has far far superior TK, but is also likely physically stronger. Just way way more skilled. Like skill isn't even a comparison between Vader and Opress.

I'm not convinced Old Ben is past his prime, given the conflicting sources on the matter. Almost certain Disney canon won't have it that way the way they've been protecting their prize boy Vader.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
And their rests the inherent problem with inscrutable a>b>c logic. You're cherry picking the fights favorable to your conclusion, while overlooking ones that aren't. More importantly, you're ignoring the circumstances. When Savage decides to 'attack' Maul, do you really think he's doing so with the intention to hurt his brother? Or... is he approaching the fight half-hardheartedly, not drawing upon his inner hatred as to bulldoze Maul, like he does with most of his opponents? Anyhow, you now have a reasonable answer to why Maul can so easily suppress his brother in that situation. I do think however, that a death-match between the two would look very different.

What fights am I ignoring exactly? I've been addressing your "Vader sucks because Luke hit him" arguments, which may I add is you cherry picking the fight you want to highlight.

According to the novel Shadow Conspiracy, Savage was enraged and striking at Maul with lethal intent. In fact Maul purposefully pissed him off with the finger pushing his shoulder putting him down. He basically told him "You wanna hang around with me you're the Apprentice. Otherwise you're dead. You're choice."

This idea that Opress wasn't really trying is baseless and usually used to lowball Maul's feat over him.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Well if you didn't realize, Yoda is a little different to Vader in both style and stature. Yoda comes with powers that can efficiently repel Dooku's, and likely has the most impressive use of augmentation in his time. Yoda's swordplay alone was enough to leave Palpatine disarmed - according to the ROTS script. And we do see on-screen, that the Emperor has conveniently lost his lightsaber at some point during the fight. Hopefully you can see why an assault from Vader, may not be quite the same as one from Yoda. Catching my drift?

It is still the case. The soon-to-be Vader is far more aggressive there than at any point during his career. The final nail in the coffin, hits when Anakin enters the 'zone'. But we also know that Luke Skywalker can present own version of the 'zone', which was catalyzed in almost the exact same manner, and used to stomp Vader just as well. One can only speculate the disparities, but Anakin still has a stronger Force potential than his son, and is almost certainly a more refined duelist. At the end of the fight, Dooku has to use every bit of Force power possible just to maintain a steady augmentation, he could have attempted some sort of distraction with the Force, but his opponent (zonakin) is so much better, that it's a useless suggestion. Unless you are trying to imply that the post-suit shell of his former self, is on level with Anakin's destruction incarnate?

Point being Dooku couldn't get off a single Lightning shot against 2 noteworthy opponents he faced. Yoda and ROTS Anakin. And he didn't Force push or Lightning either of them mid-fight. So again, it's a possibility, but less and less likely the more he's being pushed.

Also, even if Vader did get hit, doubt a Lightning shot or Force push from Dooku would be the end of Vader given what he can tank.

However a Force choke, and Physically overpowering Dooku would be the end of Dooku.

And yes I do believe "post-suit shell of his former self" Vader is on a level of Anakin's incarnate destruct, given that's exactly what we've been told in the new Canon.

The suit might slightly limit his mobility, but he's actually grown More Powerful in the Dark Side. The whole "shell of his former self" no longer applies, or only applies in regards to potential.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
You are quite correct.

Vader can manipulate rather large (and bulky) inanimate objects with his telekinesis. That is to say, he tends to manipulate larger and even bulkier inanimate objects with the Force, than Dooku does - particularly when focused solely on such a task.

But do you suppose that such feats allow him to dominate people, who have not messed around with Imperial Walkers? Are you suggesting that his non-combative feats against defunct objects - of which neither have the ability nor the inclination to protect themselves - is indicative of how well he does against a living, breathing Force wielder? Because I’d have to disagree. I’d have to tell you, that in this case, size matters not.

Par example : K’kruhk has shown to be rather proficient at moving big objects with the Force too, even when big objects are producing some form of resistance - such as spaced-aged engine thrusters. It didn’t however, help him against Grevious , the ‘non force sensitive’ deuling-threat at that time. It also didn’t help him much against Quinlan Vos, of whom Dooku is shown dealing with , pretty Forcefully. If controlling large and bulky inanimate objects was the pinnacle of Force mastery, why is K’kruhk losing to a defenseless robo-man, or coming off worse in a Force contest with Quinlan? Why is Dooku; save for a better term, shitting on all the aforementioned? Collary to this point, why does Vader not retrieve his falling son, when he’s used the Force to control larger objects? Why can he not subdue any of his opponents with the Force, as Dooku does 90% of the time?

Probably because Dooku has had more opportunity to Force dominate Jedi opponents. Let me remind you Vader has dominated Kanan via TK.

He's just not faced opponents on the level of TCW Ventress, Vos and Kenobi. Although you should bare in mind the best Inquisitor has been compared to Ventress in power. So that should give you an idea of how easily Vader could dominate Force users of that level.

What Vader does have on his side though is displaying by far the best raw TK feats in Canon. Like greater than anything even Sidious has levitated/crushed.

Not that Vader is superior to Sidious in that regard, but it shows the kind of level we're dealing with in Vader- Top tier.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
I’d explain why there might be a few details missing here, but on the contrary, the premise in question is not proof of your conclusion. Rather that it concludes why anyone can ‘ragdoll’ anyone. Then I suppose a charitable user might attest to real possibility of Dooku Force choking Vader. And that if it came down to who was more likely to use that power in a duel, then Dooku would win on those grounds.

Yes. I was once patient enough to explain why this isn't relevent, an explanation directed at you. Please don’t make me do it again.

The point of all this is that Dooku has clearly shown he's not invulnerable to Force Chokes. And that is a real possibility, especially given Vader is a top-tier in the TK regard.

And like I said looking at the challenge Savage brought to Dooku just through Physical strength, Beastly TK and Rage enhanced force powers, but with almost no skill whatsoever... Vader could honestly be Dooku's worst nightmare.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
We’ll you see, I doubt that it is a valid excuse. Dooku himself has a habit of playing with his food, or ‘toying’ with less experienced foes. That is by no means their invitation to tag him with a lightsaber, though. In the end, your argument is that vader is not good enough to maintain a valiant defense, against someone he does not want to kill..

I certainly could DarthThor, but that is not what I’m trying to prove, and is therfore a reductio ad absurdum. The very nature of this dispute, was whether or not Vader can block Dooku’s lightning, your conclusion is that he’s not.

Of course Vadre wasn't just toying, but testing and training. That was a much longer fight than we ever see Dooku in, so you can't claim that in the same situation there's no way Dooku would get hit by the Next Chosen One.

Look at it this way, AOTC Anakin pressed Dooku for a short time. You think he could Toy with AOTC Anakin for THAT Long without any kind of risk?

Let's be truthful and fair in our debate here, and not just try and lowball.

He of course CAN block Dooku's Lightning with his Saber. There MIGHT be an odd shot that gets past his Saber, but no proof that's going to cost Vadre the fight, even IF it does happen. And the Likelihood of him getting that shot reduces once Vader is all over him, the way Yoda and ROTS Anakin were...

As already explained.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Define the word ‘power’. If power means ‘knowledge’ in the Force, then prove that the accumulated knowledge has made him a better combatant. Prove that, for example, Maul has grown in a way that translates into physical grandeur, rather than the more logical explanation that, much like Kenobi, his skills have declined due to lack of training, lack of some other duelist he can practice with in the Galaxy.

Power is actualised Power in the way ROTS Anakin is More Powerful than AOTC Anakin. And in a similar way it's confirmed to us now that OT Vader is More Powerful than ROTS Pre-Suit Vader.

Logic suggests Rebels Maul is clearly more powerful now than he once was. Because By your logic (lack of experience), Maul would have been completely useless in TCW. I mean he was literally eating garbage in a straight jacket for 10+years.

And yet he got back into form pretty quickly (showing how ingrained his training was in him), but more powerful than ever. How was that? The Rage that built up in him, the Rage that kept him alive.

Now it's More than Logical, that another 19 years, when he's doing a lot more than eating garbage.. He's actively moving around trying to find ways to destroy the Sith and the Empire, that's he Only going to be even more Powerful than before.

I mean he's even built himself a new Saber Staff, something he never got a chance to do during TCW. So he's clearly keeping in touch with his Saber skills, and his Rage will only increase with the deaths of Opress and Talzin, thereby he'll Only be even more powerful than before.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Debating is not about naming every character that pops-up in your head. You to create links between these characters, and present them in a way that establishes Vader. Tano, Kanan, the Grand Inquisitor and the aged Maul might as well be non-entities. While Dooku was just capable of stomping everyone bar Yoda, Mace and an enraged Anakin in the ‘prime of the Jedi’.

He wasn't stomping Anakin at all, ever (since after AOTC). He also struggled against Vos. But his fear of Opress is what really makes me believe Vader would be his worst nightmare.

And LOL @ every name that pops up into my head. You claimed Vader's been hit by a novice in ESB Luke.

I'm pointing out he's stomped formidable Knight level guys one handed. His Inquisitors are formidable themselves and clearly no match for him at all.

And this is all completely ignoring he's more powerful than his former pre-suit self. So really all of Anakin's feats should count for him too. Just like AOTC/TCW's Anakin feats would count for ROTS Anakin/Vader.

Yeah, Vader still wins.