Originally posted by The_Tempest
[B]Now that we've established that you have no business lecturing anyone on reading comprehension... Krayt can "hang" with Abeloth simply because Luke is there to restrain her. You have presented absolutely no evidence to suggest otherwise.
I could just as easily claim the reverse: that Luke was only able to hold on to Abeloth because Krayt's draining and later Krayt's hand inside her torso was more of a pressing concern. Even with Luke doing his best, he barely affected Abeloth at all before the very end. It was Krayt's draining her throughout the whole fight that weakened her to the point where she began shrinking and it was Krayt trying to pull his stump out of her torso that caused a "geyser" of Force essence to leak from her and brought her to the point of desperation and death?
When Abeloth is making her last stand, who does she attack? Krayt, not Luke. Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.
And you haven't established shit. Nai noticed my mistake.
Originally posted by The_Tempest Luke was the one having to manhandle Abeloth from start to finish
In your effort to diminish Krayt's performance you can't even make sense of the obvious: Krayt and Luke supported each other throughout the fight.
You're making it sound like Luke did all the hard work and Krayt just laid back and "leeched" but does your narrative stand up to scrutiny?
Tentacles began to lash at his face, probing for his nose and ears and mouth. A pair of gray tips shot into view, blurring and growing large. Luke closed both eyes and turned away, but not quickly enough. The right eye socket exploded in pain, and everything went dark on that side of his head.
he tattooed stranger stepped in from the left, then slid to the front and drove his stiffened fingers deep into the pit of Abeloth’s stomach. A black spray erupted from the wound, and she writhed in pain as the stranger probed for something to grab.
and was constantly leeched of energy by Krayt.Yes, he was. That was the nature of Krayt's technique, and it did as much harm to him as it did Luke:
Still, the stranger continued to drain Abeloth, and Luke realized that he was not being betrayed—the Sith was suffering as much damage from the attack as was Luke.
He was also the first to engage
and last to fallBy literally moments. So what? Krayt was the first to get up, and he did it without any gentle babytalk from his lover.
When Krayt attacked him, Luke put him on his ass while still restraining Abeloth.Again, Krayt didn't betray Luke. Luke himself realizes it later. If anything this shows how shortsighted Luke is. if Krayt really wanted to betray him he'd have stuck his hand in Luke's chest the same way he did it to Abeloth.
And Luke's kick does exactly jack shit to Krayt anyway, the same way it did jack shit against Abeloth.
When Krayt continued to drain him after Abeloth escaped, he stopped when Luke prepared to defend himself.
Originally posted by The_Tempest Luke continued to lay in the lake after the battle, by his own admission, because he wanted to be reunited with Mara. He used his wounds as an excuse to justify it;Right, so what you're saying it was Luke's mental weakness that made him almost surrender to death. Your point is noted.
Mara's response was that if Krayt can get up, so can Luke. (Which is in itself telling.).
Only someone as desperate as you would take Mara's statement as a direct comparison between Luke and Krayt.
Originally posted by The_Tempest So again, they're not equals, Luke was more impressive, and you're as full of shit now as you were when you first tried to peddle these bullshit ideas to innocent users from the ramshackle pedo-van that is your argument.
I read the passage and Temp's assessment strikes me as more accurate. But to be quite honest, there is no real means of comparing Luke and Krayt unless you have evidence that suggests Krayt would be capable of manhandling Abeloth as Luke did.
Arguing Krayt is better because he did more damage is also pretty ****ing stupid considering the only reason he was in a position to was because Luke was holding him down, who could hardly attack himself when he's holding on to Abeloth for dear life. 😬
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I read the passage and Temp's assessment strikes me as more accurate. But to be quite honest, there is no real means of comparing Luke and Krayt unless you have evidence that suggests Krayt would be capable of manhandling Abeloth as Luke did.Arguing Krayt is better because he did more damage is also pretty ****ing stupid considering the only reason he was in a position to was because Luke was holding him down, who could hardly attack himself when he's holding on to Abeloth for dear life. 😬
Here's a summary of the fight without wall of text quotes:
-Abeloth hits them both with lightning
*cut to another scene*
-After Krayt and Luke had been hurling Force attacks for an eternity, Abeloth finally stumbles
-Luke closes in and starts fighting hand to hand. He slips in behind her and is hit by a tentacle in the right eye
-Krayt steps in and shoves his fingers "deep into the pit of Abeloth's stomach". A black spray errupts and Abeloth writhes in pain.
-Abeloth Force blasts Krayt but Krayt holds on to her. So does Luke. All three go tumbling across the lake.
-Luke starts to feel Krayt's draing but doesn't know what it is. Krayt brings them all the a halt and Luke realizes Krayt is draining them.
-Luke kicks Krayt in the knee and Krayt stumbles back.(notice it's because of Luke that Krayt disengages, not because he sat back in fear of Abeloth like Tempest suggests).
-Abeloth slips a tentacle around Luke's throat. Krayt continues his drain untill he screams in pain.
-Abeloth struggles to break free, Luke holds on, urges Krayt to resume his draining.
*cut to another scene*
-Luke still holds on to Abeloth and Krayt also has her hand in her chest. All three of them are tumbling down across the lake again
-Luke grinds them to a halt and Abeloth disappears, Krayt's hand still in her(severed from his wrist).
-Krayt is hanging in the air(nice, levitation feat for Krayt) draining Luke and Luke readies a Force blast. Before he attacks, Krayt points to Abeloth across the lake.
-Krayt uses the Force to draw his severed hand back and a fountain of Force energy erupts from Abeloth. Luke notices Abeloth is dying and desperate and readies for her final attack
-Abeloth desperately lashes at Krayt with her tentacles. Luke jumps in and gets the same treatment. He perseveres and finishes her off with an elbow to the head.
That's it.
Other than dealing the final blow, I just don't see what Luke does that is so impressive. And I honestly don't see how anyone can say he manhandled her and Krayt sat back.
Whenever Luke is grappling with Abeloth Krayt is also there with his hand in her chest. On two separate occasions Luke and Krayt are both holding on to Abeloth as they're tumbling down the lake. The only exception is when Luke himself kicks Krayt in the knee.
At the beginning when Abeloth blinds Luke with her tentacle, Krayt jumps in to help. At the end when Abeloth stabs Krayt with her tentacles, Luke jumps in to help.
Where exactly does the notion that Luke "did all the hard work" come from? I just don't see it. It was Krayt's draining that weakened her and Krayt's hand in her chest/stomach on two separate occasions had her Force essence spraying like a fire hydrant had brought her to the point of death.
Maybe in a fight in the physical Galaxy with lightsabers Luke can beat Krayt, I don't know. But I stand by my original point: in this fight against Abeloth that happened in a metaphysical place and where only strength in the Force matters, Krayt performed at least as well as Luke, if not better.
And here's another point to consider: when Luke gets close to Abeloth without Krayt, he gets hurt. When Abeloth gets close to Krayt and Luke isn't there, Krayt gets hurt.
Neither of them can handle Abeloth at close range without the other's support, despite what The_Tempest claims.
The only possible instance that can be interpreted as supporting his argument is this one:
Abeloth whipped her chin free of Luke’s hand, ripping the energy knot where they had joined and sending a sparkling line of both of their Force essences splattering across the surface of the lake. She began to roll her head around, gnashing and spitting, trying to sink her fangs into Luke’s arm or the stranger’s—anything she could reach.
Luke slipped his arm down around her throat and pulled hard, merging his form into hers, doing his best to keep her under control.
“Keep going,” Luke urged the stranger. “Pull harder!”
1)Abeloth tries to sink her fangs into Luke's arm... or the stranger's! That means Krayt is also as close to Abeloth as Luke is, and not sitting back at a distance
2)In the next scene Krayt's hand is again inside Abeloth's chest as all three of them are tumbling down, further dismissing the notion that Krayt sat back and Luke did all the heavy lifting.
It's amazing: even though you took the time to parse through my posts, you never really addressed the things I said.
I suggest you take some time to cool off, perhaps even remove your face from Krayt's armored crotch, and instead of reading into my words, just read them.
I never claimed Luke dealt Abeloth more damage than did Krayt, I never claimed Krayt's contributions weren't important, and I never claimed that the two didn't support each other.
Beni seems to grasp the truth well enough, not sure why you don't.
And I can't even begin to describe how big of a misfire it is for you to insult Luke in an attempt to upset me. haermm
Spoiler:
I'm a Sheevite, my child.
Edit: This isn't the first time we've been through this shit. You bowed, you bent, you broke.
Originally posted by Unbowed
Even so, his entire post relied on the narrative that Luke grappling with Abeloth is more significant, and that Krayt couldn't do it. That's a big misinterpretation, intentional or not.
Actually, his entire post relies on the fact, that Krayt is not only draining Abeloth but is draining Luke, too. Which leads to a situation in which Krayt constantly gets stronger while Luke gets weaker. This while Luke, to utilize RPG terms, does "tank" Abeloth the entire time, while Krayt plays "damage dealer".
In short: Tempest is correct, and you are wrong. And when I say Tempest is correct, you can be assured that he is.
And as far as this match is concerned: Luke can take Sidious, Yoda can take Krayt. Both won't be fast fights. So it just depends on which Sith screws up first.
Originally posted by The_TempestIt's amazing: even though you took the time to parse through my posts, you never really addressed the things I said.
I suggest you take some time to cool off, perhaps even remove your face from Krayt's armored crotch, and instead of reading into my words, just read them.
I never claimed Luke dealt Abeloth more damage than did Krayt, I never claimed Krayt's contributions weren't important, and I never claimed that the two didn't support each other.
Beni seems to grasp the truth well enough, not sure why you don't.
And I can't even begin to describe how big of a misfire it is for you to insult Luke in an attempt to upset me. haermm
Spoiler:
I'm a Sheevite, my child.Edit: This isn't the first time we've been through this shit. You bowed, you bent, you broke.
Originally posted by Nai
Actually, his entire post relies on the fact, that Krayt is not only draining Abeloth [b]but is draining Luke, too. Which leads to a situation in which Krayt constantly gets stronger while Luke gets weaker. This while Luke, to utilize RPG terms, does "tank" Abeloth the entire time, while Krayt plays "damage dealer".
That is simply overstating the case, just like Luke manhandling Abeloth was overstating the case. Let's look at things closely.
Then Luke felt an icy twinge between his shoulder blades. The twinge became a sting, and he began to feel something cold flowing down the center of his back. His first thought was Abeloth, that she had sunk a tentacle into his spine—until the lashing of her tentacles slowed and she began to shudder. Luke did not understand until an eternity later, when the stranger rolled up on his feet and jerked them all to a halt. The Sith seemed to be growing stronger as Abeloth grew weaker, and there were wisps of dark fume swirling off his shoulders and head. It did not take a Jedi Grand Master to understand that Luke was being betrayed by a Force-draining technique.
Still, the stranger continued to drain Abeloth, and Luke realized that he was not being betrayed—the Sith was suffering as much damage from the attack as was Luke.
Luke slipped his arm down around her throat and pulled hard, merging his form into hers, doing his best to keep her under control. “Keep going,” Luke urged the stranger. “Pull harder!”
Then she was gone, leaving the stranger and Luke with nothing between them but twenty centimeters of space and the stump of the Sith’s hand, now pointed at Luke’s chest and still drawing Force energy, draining it not from Abeloth now, but directly from Luke. They stayed like that for an eternity, a void of cold nothingness growing inside Luke as the stranger continued to hang in the air above, draining him.
So yes, while Krayt did turn his draining towards Luke at one point, the notion that he constantly grew stronger while Luke was simultaneously fighting Abeloth is incorrect.
If that is The_Tempest's argument then it's unsurprising to me he's wrong. He took Luke desperately trying to hold on to Abeloth(and doing a poor job of it when Krayt wasn't there to back him up) as "manhandling" and he misinterpreted Krayt draining Luke once, when they were alone, as Krayt draining Luke throughout the whole fight and Luke "manhandling" Abeloth while having to put up with Krayt's draining too.
In short, both are incorrect. And I suspect he knew it but still twisted what actually happened to make his narrative.
So how was Luke superior again?
In short: Tempest is correct, and you are wrong. And when I say Tempest is correct, you can be assured that he is.
Cue in smart aleck reply about my judgement being wrong. 🙂