The Flash vs. Kurse

Originally posted by Surtur
No this Pillow Biter just wants to use PIS in fights lol. So yay! Deathstroke beat Flash and GL! Spider-Man beat Firelord! Hulk got choked out by a snake! F*ck yeah. Can't wait until the next Hulk debate. Snakes on a plane is this guys worst nightmare! It's probably like watching a horror film from Hulks POV.

While I don't subscribe to a strict averaging, the concept in general is useful. See, Hulk doesn't really get choked out by snakes too often. As a result, we don't need a PIS rule to believe that the Hulk can beat a snake.

Or that the Flash is favored over Deathstroke. Why? Because if you look at the entirety of Deathstroke's history, you'd see that even going by the comics, Slade isn't typically going to beat someone on Flash's level despite one bad day at the office for him.

I understand the rules, it's just that the rules don't actually make as much sense as people think they do.

Originally posted by Surtur
No this Pillow Biter just wants to use PIS in fights lol. So yay! Deathstroke beat Flash and GL! Spider-Man beat Firelord! Hulk got choked out by a snake! F*ck yeah. Can't wait until the next Hulk debate. Snakes on a plane is this guys worst nightmare! It's probably like watching a horror film from Hulks POV.

Exactly we are NOT writing a friggin comic book here. Some people can't grasp this. Is the difference between plot induced stupidity and character induced stupidity really so hard to get?

I mean if we're writing comic books here then where is my cut of the profits for these comic books? Gimme money.

Originally posted by Surtur
Exactly we are NOT writing a friggin comic book here. Some people can't grasp this. Is the difference between plot induced stupidity and character induced stupidity really so hard to get?

I mean if we're writing comic books here then where is my cut of the profits for these comic books? Gimme money.

I can just sum it up right quick: if I make a super hero with an IQ of 10, you can totally say he won't know to use super powers correctly.

Blatant PIS is actually much rarer than people think. And neither CIS nor PIS is what stops Flash from being an elite top tier and never getting hit. It's just comic book conventions, which are are different.
And the idea that by trying to identify, isolate, and remove this magical PIS you will now be able to evaluate fights with clarity, allowing for logic to shine through, is so 1999. Most battle boarders go through that stage, and then get past it, because the road doesn't go where you think it goes.

So yeah, we should in a way be writing our own comics. We should imagine how a fight would go if it were to be written next week. Of course in this case there is no specific plot that might influence results. And so heroes don't necessarily win as often as they do in comics. But we follow the broad conventions of the genre, such as the clear bias towards physical powers over esoteric ones. The prioritization of strength and durability over speed. Etc.

Is it within Flash's ability to stomp Kurse? Absolutely. He could go on an all-out speed blitz, he could Speed Force dump like SBP, he could IMP, he could vibrational rage like AM, he could phase through a counter attack the attosecond before Kurse made contact.

But, in 99.999% of appearances he doesn't do any of those things.

So can he win? Without any effort. Would he win in a comic? Absolutely not. We can all agree on that much I think

The rest of the "argument" is just arguing what the forum rules are and whether they're stupid. /thread.

see i don't see a stomp as possible at all even using forum flash. a speed force dump is the only viable sure win imo. imp? the dude took the entire energy of 2 hammers to just get ko'd. an imp barely took out one white martian.... speed steal isn't indefinite. the vibrational attack MIGHT work. uncertain. speed blitz ain't doing jack imo. flash DOES tire. kurse is essentially invulnerable and never tires.

yeah i really don't see a stomp here at all....

Originally posted by Cogito
But, in 99.999% of appearances he doesn't do any of those things.

I think it just gets noticed more with Flash because some of the haxx shit within his powerset is just ludicrous.... It's not every day you see characters casually operating by the attosecond, for example. Those kind of feats definitely stand out(especially when people on the forum decide to take them to the extreme) -- which is why we get the "forum Flash sucks" faction. Understandably.

Originally posted by leonidas
speed steal isn't indefinite.

Originally posted by Galan007
This is the case with almost every character we debate here, though. I know we like to *try* and find character-averages, but 99% of the time it's just the higher-end/one-off showings that get mentioned...And re-mentioned. Debated...And re-debated.

I think it just gets noticed more with Flash because some of the haxx shit within his powerset is just ludicrous.... It's not every day you see characters casually operating by the attosecond, for example. Those kind of feats definitely stand out(especially when people on the forum decide to take them to the extreme) -- which is why we get the "forum Flash sucks" faction. Understandably.

👆

i sorta count myself a member of that club, though i love flash. but when i say forum flash sux!!1! i mean he sucks in the way that he is almost impossible to match up and get good discussion out of. nothing (in my case) against the character itself..

Absorbing Kurse's speed/kinetic energy *should* render him inert long enough to constitute a forum win, imo. That is the only reason I see it as a viable tactic. /shrug [/B]

ah. cool. i never really looked at it that way. what;s the longest anyone has remained completely inert? do you happen to know? he doesn't usually steal ALL kinetic energy afaik, though i'm sure he must have at some point.... that's an interesting point you raised. 👆

Originally posted by leonidas
👆

i sorta count myself a member of that club, though i love flash. but when i say forum flash sux!!1! i mean he sucks in the way that he is almost impossible to match up and get good discussion out of. nothing (in my case) against the character itself..

Originally posted by leonidas
ah. cool. i never really looked at it that way. what;s the longest anyone has remained completely inert? do you happen to know? he doesn't usually steal ALL kinetic energy afaik, though i'm sure he must have at some point.... that's an interesting point you raised. 👆

Shown/mentioned again here:
http://i.imgur.com/0CyKPuv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VGyPZJs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/oGLUUtM.jpg

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Blatant PIS is actually much rarer than people think. And neither CIS nor PIS is what stops Flash from being an elite top tier and never getting hit. It's just comic book conventions, which are are different.
And the idea that by trying to identify, isolate, and remove this magical PIS you will now be able to evaluate fights with clarity, allowing for logic to shine through, is so 1999. Most battle boarders go through that stage, and then get past it, because the road doesn't go where you think it goes.

So yeah, we should in a way be writing our own comics. We should imagine how a fight would go if it were to be written next week. Of course in this case there is no specific plot that might influence results. And so heroes don't necessarily win as often as they do in comics. But we follow the broad conventions of the genre, such as the clear bias towards physical powers over esoteric ones. The prioritization of strength and durability over speed. Etc.

No we shouldn't be writing our own comics because anything can happen in a comic. What you say should happen would then by no more valid then what I say would happen.

PIS is also rampant in comics. Every single Flash comic has it. Pretty much every Superman comic has it and the JLA comics are chalk full of it. Nobody said it gives clarity, it just removes some bullshit. Like any "so so and won't use their super speed" type of BS.

I disagree with your characterization of comics, and what PIS is and how it manifests itself. I think a very interesting discussion could be had on this topic, and a productive one. Even if it weren't aimed at changing the forum rules per se, it might help to clarify and illuminate them. However, this is probably the wrong place to do so.

And at the end of the day, I respect the right of the board owners to put down any rules they want. I've been on message boards for a long time, and lurked/posted here for many years as well. I guess at some point the rules were not quite so defined, and my understanding got stuck in that era. Now I see they are fairly defined. And it's annoying and disrespectful to go around ignoring them or cluttering up versus threads with stuff that for most posters is irrelevant, and even contrary, to the accepted norms and consensus here.
I'm sorry for that, and I'll stop, since it's not allowed. And I'm probably pretty close to getting banned. Again, I didn't understand how things work around here these days, but now I do. At some point I have to debate your way, or leave.
I remain undecided on that question, but wanted to apologize for any annoyance my ignorance may have caused.

P.S. Would there be an appropriate forum for pursuing a discussion about what CIS, PIS, and Full Capacity mean? I see no general comics discussion forum.

Originally posted by Surtur
Exactly we are NOT writing a friggin comic book here. Some people can't grasp this. Is the difference between plot induced stupidity and character induced stupidity really so hard to get?

I mean if we're writing comic books here then where is my cut of the profits for these comic books? Gimme money.

So if we are not accepting what is shown in comics, then why post scans? What's the point of providing scans in a debate where we are debating strictly off of powerset?

Originally posted by iceman24567
What if some of Flashes blood got in his eye?

A+ for creativity.

Originally posted by Galan007
👆
It's the same sort of thing we typically see in Sentry threads(especially recent Sentry threads.) The potential for a great discussion is there, but a few 'tards come in posting their BS, and it taints the entire thread for everyone. Of course this can(and has) happened with pretty much any character, but Flash and Sentry threads really stand out in that respect, lol.

After digging deep in the SF, Flash was able to freeze Inertia permanently:
http://i.imgur.com/Mj8iAvr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/K1A5yUO.jpg

Shown/mentioned again here:
http://i.imgur.com/0CyKPuv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VGyPZJs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/oGLUUtM.jpg

lol i remember that now. that was bad a$$.... i rescind my earlier comment then--speed steal would/could def count as a win. 👆

Originally posted by carver9
So if we are not accepting what is shown in comics, then why post scans? What's the point of providing scans in a debate where we are debating strictly off of powerset?

There are contradictions in comics all the time. Jobbing happens, characters forgetting their powers (or not written with them) for the sake of the plot.

Flashes perceptions are always on (not sometimes). He will always view slow moving objects in slow motion (or at a standstill). If Flash gets hit by a slow moving enemy then that contradicts that his slow motion viewing perceptions.