Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Besting Desann (why amped significantly no less), before fighting through an entire army of highly skilled Dark Troopers/Reborn? The best of Reborn, being very proficient in the Strong, fast, and medium style of combat? With Dark Troopers being even greater than, the Reborn, while also sporting cortosis armor and cloaking capabilities?
Desann has next to nothing other than a few lightsaber clashes with Luke and running away from him. That's hardly out of the realm of Malgus's abilities, and killing troopers isn't much better than Malgus stomping Republic soldiers. Malgus won't have issues with unorthodoxy considering he beat the Jedi temple Battlemaster 50 years before his prime, with Kao being capable of utilizing his own unorthodox lightsaber style.
How about fighting through a host of Sith abomination, on a planet who's DS nexus was powerful enough to turn him to the darkside, before he gained a substantial amount of power? What about besting Jerec 6 Dark Jedi with minimal training, which, each being more powerful than the other?
Not sure how killing fodder really means anything in the grand scheme of things, especially considering how commonplace that feat is among other NJO duelists. Those 6 Dark Jedi also got stomped by Qu Rahn who was past his prime, and one of them iirc even shot and killed himself with a blaster. They're nowhere near close to Malgus constantly beating the best Jedi of the TOR era, being considered one of the greatest Swordsmen of the Sith empire by Hope (While Kyle was struggling with Dark Jedi), and being considered one of Sidious's greatest predecessors. Malgus would stomp all of them at once given he's more skilled than Qu, and Qu was beating them off before Jerec oneshot him
From a technical standpoint, Kyle is a master of, like, 7 different forms/styles of lightsaber - and incorporated every them all to create his own unique form.
The only issue he might have is that he's never seen the NJO style, which itself is just a mismash of the 7 lightsaber forms. Malgus is considerably stronger, more durable, and more skilled than Kyle in the realm of lightsaber combat, so any sort of technical edge you think he has is minimal at best.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
[B]I'm finding a hard time accepting defeating Darach is superior to Katarn defeating Sarris while simultaneously engaging in a telepathic battle, also, before he gained a substantial amount of power, and technical skill obviously.
Vindican was a noted Sith Inquisitor of his time, and Darach was fighting him off and Malgus off even slaying the former. I don't recall Sariss doing anything major in combat prior to dueling Katarn, and even then I'm not seeing how she'd last any longer against Malgus did then Satele did in Return. IIRC Kyle was having trouble with her and even got struck once, whereas, Malgus was able to mow through Darach and stomp Satele in his first showing. All that while Malgus has bested multiple Jedi at once, beaten Ven Zallow, beaten Satele Shan twice, beaten/fought evenly with Aryn Leneer, in comparison to Kyle who has next to no showings after the Vong War besides losing to Caedus
Arbitrarily statement based on what exactly? I seriously doubt if there is any jarring difference between the average Jedi/Sith of TOR time, and a average Reborn. Reborn, after all, were stated to be a match for Jedi of the NJO, while Shadow Troopers where the Reborn's better, skilled in Force Lightning, equipped with lightsaber deflecting/shortening cortisis armor.
The NJO Jedi at the time weren't close to their prime as an order iirc. Whereas the Jedi of Malgus's time had spent decades fighting the Sith, compared to Luke's order who only encountered the ghost of Exar Kun. I missed the first order but with regards to my prior point, killing fodder isn't really out of the realm of Malgus's capabilities.
>Implying a peak Katarn wouldn't be in the same exact position had he been in Malgus' spot?
In terms of feats I'm not seeing how Katarn is all that much better than Zallow in terms of lightsaber skill. Regardless Malgus being the Empire's best Swordsmen would put him above Scourge, Darth Baras, Darth Marr, Darth Nyriss, and others especially given there was no Jedi who was able to finally down him until whoever killed him in the FE Flashpoint. This again in comparison to Kyle who has next to no feats after the Vong War to suggest he became more skilled, and whose showings in general aren't as great as he's hyped up to be.
The Reborn are actually pretty damn skilled. While their power in the Force was lacking, their skill with a lightsaber more than makes up for it:
Taken from: Threats of the Galaxy
The Reborn are easily recognized by their orange cloaks and simple, red-bladed lightsabers. Even though they have been granted the ability to use
the Force, their aptitude to wield it is not very strong, but their ability with
the lightsaber compensates for this shortcoming.
As are the Dark Jedi Masters Katarn faced; they were called as high-level villains, no matter what era they were placed in:
Taken from: Threats of the Galaxy
Dark Jedi Masters are excellent high-level villains for just about any era.
This at least rivals the accolades those Sith Ven chopped down got. And keep in mind Katarn slaughtered these guys in hordes, while also on a Dark Side Nexus. And, following this raid, Katarn bested Desann, who was described as being a potent foe of the New Jedi Order, not to mention held off Luke for a good 20 seconds:
Taken from: Threats of the Galaxy
Commanding a powerful ship and supported by a fleet of starfighters, Desann would prove a potent foe for the New Jedi Order.
So Kyle should rival Zallow, at least, at this stage and he should've logically improved.
Originally posted by carthage[B]Desann has next to nothing other than a few lightsaber clashes with Luke and running away from him.
Not true. In terms of power - we know for a fact that Desann utterly mastered the dark side, before he visited the Valley of the Jedi, which amped his power to a significant degree:
Desann fled the Jedi Praxeum on Yavln 4 and continued his training on his own, experimenting with the Force and using his powerful emotions to compensate for his lack of experience. He dabbled, fumbled, and eventually learned to harness the hatred and anger necessary to master the dark side.
--Excerpt from Threats of the Galaxy
Tricking the Jedi Kyle Katarn into revealing the location of the Valley of the Jedi, Desann led his band of trainees to the Force nexus on Ruusan, quadrupling their innate powers with the residue of the ancient Jedi sprits.
--Excerpt from The Dark Forces Saga, Part 6 Outcasts and Megalomaniacs Welcome
If you run into Desann, don't try to take him on alone; now that he's been through the Valley of the Jedi, he'll more powerful than ever.
--- Luke Skywalker Excerpt taken from Jedi Outcast
He was also stated to be a "potent" foe to the NJO:
Commanding a powerful ship and supported by a fleet of star fighters, Desann would prove a potent foe for the New Jedi Order.
--Excerpt from Threats of the Galaxy
In terms of skill, Desann is significantly above both the Reborn, and Shadow Troopers, and the Dark Jedi he commands. Some of the former being masters of the Medium Style, Strong style, and Fast style. We know, that the Shadowtroopers are even more deadly than the Reborn are, and per Threats of the Galaxy, we know the Dark Jedi he controls can momentarily give pause to even the most skilled Jedi:
The darkside of the Force combined with anger or passion can cause even skilled Jedi to balk momentarily.Whether by himself or with supporters, a Dark Jedi enters combat with tittle hesitation and tends to focus his energy on Force-using heroes who oppose him before turning on any others, using his lightsaber and any offensive Force powers to quickly finish the fight.
--Excerpt from Threats of the Galaxy
As far as actual feats go, Desann was able to;
- Absolutely stomp Merc Kyle, who has stalemated the notorious Jedi Boba Fett in combat.
- Trade blows with Luke Skywalker for sometime, landed a Force push on him, and dropped a structure on him via saber throw.
____________________________________________
While the latter feat is grossly overrated, and not as exceptional as some hype it to be given Luke's tendency to hold back --- it still is noteworthy considering the aforesaid Jedi, thought Desann a no less a "threat".
In the three things that make someone a skillful duelist:
1. Mastery/strength of the Force: Desann has completely mastered the darkside, casually brought down decently sized metal structure with a gesture, created illusions that affected the likes of Katarn, and Force shoved Luke.
2. Technical adroitness: Desann was the one who taught the - Medium, Strong, and Fast style of combat to the Reborn, who mastered the forms. Which imples, Desann himself was a mastered the the aforesaid lightsaber forms
3. Physical capability: We don't actually know much regarding this topic, besides the fact he has no problem competing against other power/fast Jedi, and he's a primarily Strong Style user, which implies the practitioner possess a decent degree of power.
As posted above Desann excels at them all. Therefore, by logical inference, he should be quote the formidable duelist without any further amping. With the Valley amp, AND the Yavin amp, I see no reason Desann wasn't a Vallow level duelist at least.
To hammer in the point more; what reallymakes Kyle's feat of besting the Dark Jedi so impressive is the following: Kyle had to fight through armies of Dark Jedi/Reborn/Shadow Troopers, just to battle Desann. Combine all of the aforesaid circumstances together, and I find Kyle's showing on Yavin to be greater than Malgus' killing Zen, tbh. All of this is done before Kyle further increased his skill with a blade via becoming proficient in the newly discovered forms of the Old Republic: Shii-Cho, Djem So, and Ataru.
killing troopers isn't much better than Malgus stomping Republic soldiers.
Nah. Shadow Troopers are far and away superior to normal Republic soldiers.
Malgus won't have issues with unorthodoxy considering he beat the Jedi temple Battlemaster 50 years before his prime, with Kao being capable of utilizing his own unorthodox lightsaber style.
Dunno when I actually brought unorthodoxy into the equation, tbh. I was more or less, commenting of Kyle's supreme technical adroitness rather than claiming the innovative form itself would cause Malgus any problems.
Not sure how killing fodder really means anything in the grand scheme of things, especially considering how commonplace that feat is among other NJO duelists.
Fodder is all relative. But typically, how impressive one does against "fodder" is how we usually determine the skill of a duelist. And no, not many Jedi are sporting the fodder busting feats Kyle has under his belt in the NJO - or any era for that matter. His Yavin showing is absolutely insane, tbh.
To be continued.....
Cotinued from the last post @Carthage:
Those 6 Dark Jedi also got stomped by Qu Rahn who was past his prime, and one of them iirc even shot and killed himself with a blaster.
Context, Carth, context. He had the upper-hand against them, but he also when caught them off guard (which is partly why he did Boc in) and the clash wasn't very long to begin with. Sariss, for instance, only exchanged a few lightsaber clashes, and Yun couldn't even fight given his lightsaber was jacked by Qu. That aside, what makes the 6 Dark Jedi showing so impressive is Katarn was a bonafide neophyte at the time, with only the few teachings of Qu, and his fencing lessons taught during his Stomrtroopers days to guide him. He literally just picked up a lightsaber and started plowing through shit. That is a absolutely insane showing of intrinsic aptitude with a blade. He only got significantly better over time with further training, and mastery over various forms of combat.
Also, I think you're underrating the Dark Jedi a bit too much. They all have some impressive accolades under their belt. Maw, for instance, was stated to be a master of Trispzest - a lightsaber style that heavily incorporates principles of Juyo t the point it has been compared to Vaapad in that regard:
Trispzest is a style of lightsaber combat developed by the airborne Majestrix of Skye Kharys. Like Mace Windu's variant Vaapad, the S'kytri Majestrix adapted Form VII lightsaber combat (or Juyo in High Galactic), mixing it with traditional S'kytri aerial dueling techniques to take particular advantage allowed her by flight.
As we all know, to achieve and control Form VII, one must be a high-level master of multiple forms
Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII.
Seeing as how Maw, ultimately, was able to master a form adapted Juyo as it's main crux, I think it's safe to assume he achieved control over said form, honestly. In terms of strength/knowledge in the Force, Maw knows abilities such as Force drain, tutaminis, ad he survived bisection via his raw anger and power in the Force, a la Darth Maul. He also utterly mastered Force Flight to the point it became "second nature" to him. So yeah, all things considered, I would say Maw is pretty damn good. Sariss, in particular, was more or less, stated to be more powerful and skilled than even Maw - per Qu and New Essential Guide to Characters. She was also skilled in the rather esoteric ability Deathly Sight, and could engage in telepathtic battles, while simultaneously dueling an opponent.
So yeah, all things considered, I don't see why you feel the need to lowball the Dark Jedi. What Katarn did was impressive no matter how you want to cut the mustard.
They're nowhere near close to Malgus constantly beating the best Jedi of the TOR era
Based on what exactly? I mean, as I explained above, some of the Dark Jedi were impressive in their own right, and Katarn was nothing more than a trainee when he proceeded to beat them one by one.
being considered one of the greatest Swordsmen of the Sith empire by Hope
Giving Kyle's feats and such by that time, I don't see why Kyle wouldn't be seen as one of the greatest duelist in the galaxy at the time, either.
and being considered one of Sidious's greatest predecessors.
Does the quote apply to Deceived Malgus?
Malgus would stomp all of them at once given he's more skilled than Qu, and Qu was beating them off before Jerec oneshot him.
Your circular logic and ignorance to context is laughable here, tbh. But nah, none of Malgus feats/accolades suggest he can stomp the Dark Jedi. Try again, though. 👆
The only issue he might have is that he's never seen the NJO style, which itself is just a mismash of the 7 lightsaber forms.
Yes, a kind of style Malgus have never encountered can be a problem for him.
Malgus is considerably stronger.
Don't really think that would matter much, lmao. It's not like Kyle isn't a beast in strength in is own right. Kicking a Vong far enough that he was protected from the blast radius of a thermal detonator (which should be around 18 feet, IIRC) is a pretty impressive strength feet honestly.
more durable
Won't matter all the much in lightsaber duel. But Kyle tanking blast from Ragnos' scepter, and getting nailed with a ****ing speeder hurled at him by Caedus proves parity reragdless.
and more skilled than Kyle in the realm of lightsaber combat
I disagree.
so any sort of technical edge you think he has is minimal at best.
Nah. Kyle is clearly more skilled from a technical standpoint, and nothing you posted here suggest otherwise.