Kyle Katarn vs Darth Malgus

Started by Stealth Moose3 pages
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Lol mastering seven forms matters little these days. Look at Kas'im and Bulq, masters of seven forms and they're shit

Truth.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus 45 years from his prime defeated the Jedi Battlemaster and was one of the greatest warriors in the Empire. The Jedi and Sith of the TOR era are laughably beyond the puny Reborn and Dark Troopers Katarn fought, with access to more true knowledge and techniques than they could ever dream of.

As of Decieved Malgus was likely the greatest warrior in the galaxy apart from Scourge and had taken down the premier Jedi duelists of his day. Before he recieved the immense boost in power he got at the end of the book.

^^^

Malgus stomps.

Originally posted by MythLord
Ngl, probably Kyle in sabers and all-out, but Malgus should take Force.
Malgus is better as a duelist then he is a force user.

That's totally irrelevant.

Not true. In terms of power - we know for a fact that Desann utterly mastered the dark side, before he visited the Valley of the Jedi, which amped his power to a significant degree:

That's not what the quote says it says he learned to use his emotions to compensate for his lack of experience which is necessary to master the darkside. It even makes it a note to show that he isn't fully experienced, i,e he was on the pathway to mastery but not quite there yet:

Desann fled the Jedi Praxeum on Yavln 4 and continued his training on his own, experimenting with the Force and using his powerful emotions to compensate for his lack of experience. He dabbled, fumbled, and eventually learned to harness the hatred and anger necessary to master the dark side.

This is in comparison to Malgus who at the end of Deceived, achieved a state of power that surpassed his feats from the trailers/novel onward, and In the Book of Anger Malgus's strength in the Darkside enabled him to unlock the ability of Maelstrom and becoming powerful enough to be considered one of Palpatine's most powerful predecessors:

Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage.

He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he

were the Force, as if he had merged with it.

He had evolved. Nothing split his loyalties any longer. He served the Force and only the Force, and his understanding of it increased daily.

-Deceived

Through the principles of anger, I will structure and maintain my Empire. The writings of Darth Malgus confirm that anger, combined with will, is the key to power. When anger intensifies to rage, it is unstoppable.
Malgus submitted utterly to the dark Side, and doing so made him an exemplary warrior. His battlefield feats have ever been duplicated.

It must be understood that anger can be funnelled through the body and released near the heart at the "vital gate." The destruction that can be unleashed by this method is immense. Thousands of enemies can be annihilated in a single act of malice.

In time, the channeled anger of the dark side will prove just as destructive as the Death Star. there will no longer be a need for costly constructions. Already, I have perfected the Force maelstrom, which creates an invulnerable energy sphere to block incoming attacks while bombarding enemies with debris and electrifying them with bolts of lightning.

-Book of Anger

Malgus at his peak being more powerful than the version that fought Zallow, and even prior to his peak at the end of Deceived/False Emperor flashpoint Satele remarked he was the most powerful darksider she's ever seen:

"There in the hangars I encountered the most dangerous embodiment of the dark side I have ever experienced-the man who would later be known as Darth Malgus."

Source: The Journal of Master Gnost-Dural

So Hope Malgus was already being compared to Dark councilors like Darth Baras/Darth Mekhis and in Satele's opinion was greater, and that was decades before his prime. I find these quotes to be of greater weight than quotes that blatantly say Desann was barely mastering the force, and was a "potent" foe of the NJO given Malgus was already amongst the greatest bladesbeings even as of Hope. Zallow being able to compete with him would place him above Kao Cen Darach, Satele Shan, Vindican (in sparring), as Zallow was regarded as Malgus's most notable (kill)/the only Jedi worth his attention in the sacking of Coruscant:

Malgus considered Zallow the "only Jedi present to be worthy of his attention":

Malgus knew the battle had turned, that it would soon be over. He glanced around, still seeking Zallow, the only opponent on the field worthy of his attention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2jjQz2fWAc

3:57 Its shown he was his most notable kill (Star Wars The Old Republice Timeline🙂

Who Also blitzed the Sith Empire's most skilled Swordsmen:

Republic leaders have traveled to Alderaan to engage in promised peace talks with the Sith Empire. The most powerful Jedi have accompanied them to safeguard against an Imperial deception. The Empire’s real motive, however, was simply to lure the Republic’s strongest defenders away from Coruscant and set the stage for an audacious attack. Under the command of Lord Angral, the Sith fleet approaches the Republic’s capital planet for the first time in centuries. In advance of the fleet, the strongest Sith Warriors have flown a stolen Republic ship into Coruscant’s orbit

As far as actual feats go, Desann was able to;

- Absolutely stomp Merc Kyle, who has stalemated the notorious Jedi Boba Fett in combat.

- Trade blows with Luke Skywalker for sometime, landed a Force push on him, and dropped a structure on him via saber throw.

Boba isn't even force sensitive and while he's a bounty hunter of Renown, Malgus would simply annihilate him via the force. Mercenary Kyle at best has some Imperial training and beaten Dark Jedi with the Aid of Qu Rahn. None of these is explicitly outside of Malgus's capabilities as a duelist, given he was already contending with some of the best Jedi of the Old Republic era.

While the latter feat is grossly overrated, and not as exceptional as some hype it to be given Luke's tendency to hold back --- it still is noteworthy considering the aforesaid Jedi, thought Desann a no less a "threat".

Its interesting to me that you call the feat 'grossly overrated' yet attempt to pass it off as legitimate. Luke as of that time period is above Darth Vader who in turn in Legends is well above Malgus, Desann, and Kyle. On top of that its not even a duel, he fled and they clashed blades for a few seconds. None of this is outside the realm of Malgus, and most emphatically its an inconsistent showing and outright nonsense. The best you could argue is Desann is good enough to clash blades, but by that same logic Lumiya, Gantoris, Flint, and a host of other people are comparable to him. Clashing blades briefly can't be used to scale as a valid feat, and it doesn't place him above Zallow or Satele for that matter.

In the three things that make someone a skillful duelist:

1. Mastery/strength of the Force: Desann has completely mastered the darkside, casually brought down decently sized metal structure with a gesture, created illusions that affected the likes of Katarn, and Force shoved Luke.

It didn't state he mastered it it even said he was inexperienced and on the path of learning the darkside due to using his emotions. Malgus could implode ships/blast away tons of rubble from two buildings decades before his prime. Collapsing that structure wouldn't even place Desann above him as of Deceived, the same Malgus that killed Zallow

2. Technical adroitness: Desann was the one who taught the - Medium, Strong, and Fast style of combat to the Reborn, who mastered the forms. Which imples, Desann himself was a mastered the the aforesaid lightsaber forms

Solid. But wouldn't prevent him from being killed by Malgus whose already faced more skilled duelists than Desann

3. Physical capability: We don't actually know much regarding this topic, besides the fact he has no problem competing against other power/fast Jedi, and he's a primarily Strong Style user, which implies the practitioner possess a decent degree of power.

You can't really claim he's more powerful when unamped, given his showings against Kyle all take place in the Valley of the Jedi. Also physically speaking Malgus is well above Kyle in physicals/durability. Kyle at best can withstand a speeder slamming into him, but was KOED by Caedus's lightsaber. In comparison to Malgus being blasted into a cliffside and being crushed by tons of rubble, Malgus being stabbed by Aryn's lightsaber and using his pain to keep fighting, being hit by flash grenades/missiles, withstanding Adraa's/Vindican's lightning, he's far more durable than either Desann or Kyle. Physically Kyle's best showing is throwing Vong around iirc, compared to Malgus who could crack Marble with his blows, send Zallow flying ten meters with a kick, shatter stone pillars, break ribs with his strike, literally pound Aryn Leneer's guard down, smack away large chunks of metal debris in the Return trailer, i,e he's strong enough to wear Kyle down overtime in a prolonged duel. Desann's physicals aren't comparable to his at all. And given Zallow withstood punishment from him and is greater than Satele, Vindican, the Zabrak Jedi master, and Kao Cen Darach per being his most notable kill- I'd argue he's better than someone like Desann who was still learning the ways of the force per the quotes you posted.

To hammer in the point more; what reallymakes Kyle's feat of besting the Dark Jedi so impressive is the following: Kyle had to fight through armies of Dark Jedi/Reborn/Shadow Troopers, just to battle Desann. Combine all of the aforesaid circumstances together, and I find Kyle's showing on Yavin to be greater than Malgus' killing Zen, tbh. All of this is done before Kyle further increased his skill with a blade via becoming proficient in the newly discovered forms of the Old Republic: Shii-Cho, Djem So, and Ataru.

I'll condense my reply to this without quoting the following parts related to fodder/technical skill. Given Malgus had already beaten a Battlemaster i,e Kao Cen Darach Kyle's technical skill won't be anything to him, and would at worst be him finding out how to combat the NJO style.

To hammer in the point more; what reallymakes Kyle's feat of besting the Dark Jedi so impressive is the following: Kyle had to fight through armies of Dark Jedi/Reborn/Shadow Troopers, just to battle Desann. Combine all of the aforesaid circumstances together, and I find Kyle's showing on Yavin to be greater than Malgus' killing Zen, tbh. All of this is done before Kyle further increased his skill with a blade via becoming proficient in the newly discovered forms of the Old Republic: Shii-Cho, Djem So, and Ataru.

Fodder is all relative. But typically, how impressive one does against "fodder" is how we usually determine the skill of a duelist. And no, not many Jedi are sporting the fodder busting feats Kyle has under his belt in the NJO - or any era for that matter. His Yavin showing is absolutely insane, tbh.

To be continued.....

Generally, Fodder killing showings are commonplace among force users, Jaina, Anakin Solo, and Mara all slaughtered score of Yuuzhan Vong, Revan killed scores of droids/Dark Jedi, Meetra killed scores of Fodder Sith- its generally a single skilled opponent that pushes a force user to his limit and is a true testament of skill and Malgus has faced more impressive foes than Dark Jedi/Vong. What I generally take issue with Kyle as I'll post in my followup is that these showings are before his prime, and after the Vong war he has next to nothing to suggest he became more skilled. We could compare notes on killing scores of nameless victims, but if we compare the accomplishments between the Dark Jedi/Desann to Zallow, Darach, Satele Shan, and Aryn Leneer they're honestly found wanting. Especially since the latter were capable of blitzing Sith, fighting some of the most powerful Sith of the TOR era (Darth Mekhis/Darth Baras in the case of Satele), and Kao being capable of holding off Vindican a notable Sith Inquisitor/Malgus off at the same time before being slayed. Malgus's career spans decades of Jedi killing, being referred to as the among the best Sith swordsmen prior to Deceived, so in terms of actual combat he's seen far more and can be scaled far more easily than Kyle.

Response to part 2 is forthcoming

Awesome, Carth. Was afraid you forgot all about this.

Context, Carth, context. He had the upper-hand against them, but he also when caught them off guard (which is partly why he did Boc in) and the clash wasn't very long to begin with. Sariss, for instance, only exchanged a few lightsaber clashes, and Yun couldn't even fight given his lightsaber was jacked by Qu.

So what if his lightsaber was taken in the clip he was clearly capable of reacting and Qu held them all of without much difficulty even bifurcating one of them prior to being killed by Jerec. Its the Jedi's own ineptitude that his blade was stolen, and given that none of these Jedi are even comparable to Kao in kill Malgus would've butchered them even as of the Hope Trailer

At 3:07 he was clearly able to react:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=184&v=6GfgtBuhOxk

That aside, what makes the 6 Dark Jedi showing so impressive is Katarn was a bonafide neophyte at the time, with only the few teachings of Qu, and his fencing lessons taught during his Stomrtroopers days to guide him. He literally just picked up a lightsaber and started plowing through shit. That is a absolutely insane showing of intrinsic aptitude with a blade. He only got significantly better over time with further training, and mastery over various forms of combat.

Agreed its impressive at the time, but since we're discussing combatants at their peak and Kyle's best feat is beating Desann who was inexperienced and learning its hard to truly gauge the feat. Not to mention the guides explicitly state that Rahn aided Kyle in some of his fights

One weapon only?" a voice said within his head. "What of your mind? Are you Jedi? Or something less?" The words, and the fact that Rahn was with him, brought new hope.
Unlike most Jedi, who serve an apprenticeship under a Master, Kyle had been forced to work on his talents on his own, or almost on his own, since he did receive occasional guidance from the now-disembodied Jedi known as Rahn.

-Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

If we're going to discuss the feat its important to note that, and obviously these Dark Jedi pale in comparison to fighting trained Sith. Especially when Satele someone who is notably Malgus's inferior with a lightsaber blade could already fight and hold her own against Dark Council members like Darth Baras and Angral, and Zallow could blitz the Empire's greatest swordsmen. Killing Dark Jedi with the aid of a ghost isn't even close to being a noted Swordsmen beating/killing the best Jedi of an era.

Seeing as how Maw, ultimately, was able to master a form adapted Juyo as it's main crux, I think it's safe to assume he achieved control over said form, honestly. In terms of strength/knowledge in the Force, Maw knows abilities such as Force drain, tutaminis, ad he survived bisection via his raw anger and power in the Force, a la Darth Maul. He also utterly mastered Force Flight to the point it became "second nature" to him. So yeah, all things considered, I would say Maw is pretty damn good. Sariss, in particular, was more or less, stated to be more powerful and skilled than even Maw - per Qu and New Essential Guide to Characters. She was also skilled in the rather esoteric ability Deathly Sight, and could engage in telepathtic battles, while simultaneously dueling an opponent.

With regards to knowing some of these techniques they exist only on paper as game guide entries. This obviously isn't going to cut it in terms of demonstrations of power- Sariss, Yun, Maw and all of them knew all of these abilities yet never demonstrated the more advanced ones. In terms of raw power in the force only Jerec is really only comparable to Malgus. And with regards to Maw he mastered these forms to compensate for being cut in half, which is honestly at best comparable to Malgus getting blasted into a cliffside and still fighting and killing Jedi in the Third Way. Malgus as of the same time period is already one of the best Sith warriors, and more powerful than the likes of Dark councillors decades before his prime. He would very easily replicating slaughtering these Jedi, and in turn would only really have issues with Jerec.

So yeah, all things considered, I don't see why you feel the need to lowball the Dark Jedi. What Katarn did was impressive no matter how you want to cut the mustard.[

Impressive? For the time period, maybe and its not enough to place him above Malgus who at the end of Deceived was unopposed by anyone in the Sith Empire in terms of feats/supremacy with a Lightsaber. Kyle again in his prime in LOTF has more or less been relegated to training and killing Kiliks/losing to Caedus i,e nearly getting cut in half in the opening part of their duel

Based on what exactly? I mean, as I explained above, some of the Dark Jedi were impressive in their own right, and Katarn was nothing more than a trainee when he proceeded to beat them one by one.

Based off of Hope Satele/Pre Fatal Alliance Satele being capable of fighting Dark councilors, i,e the most powerful Sith in the Galaxy:

"While the undying Emperor serves as the unquestioned leader of the Empire, the twelve members of the Dark Council oversee the daily workings of their vast civilization and speak in the Emperor’s name. Each is among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy; to hold a seat on the council is the highest honor and the greatest position of influence a Sith can attain."

―The Dark Council Codex Entry (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"The Dark Council are the galaxy's most powerful Sith."

―Moff Valion Pyron (Star Wars The Old Republic)

Based off of Zallow blitzing and killing the most skilled Sith warriors in the Empire/being Malgus's greatest kill- and being greater than Darach who could hold off Return Malgus/famed Sith Inquisitor Vindican, and Malgus being greater than any of them with a blade.

Giving Kyle's feats and such by that time, I don't see why Kyle wouldn't be seen as one of the greatest duelist in the galaxy at the time, either.

Never dismissed this. But again Malgus was already besting the absolute best of his time period, and they all have better feats than being "powerful foes" and scaling amongst themselves. In terms of feats, yeah he's better than Zallow but that's only due to inherently greater force potential, in terms of feats he's at best marginally better. But he's lacking in latter showings to compete with False Emperor Malgus

Does the quote apply to Deceived Malgus?

It refers to him at his peak, given Malgus likely learned Maelstrom only after Deceived.

Your circular logic and ignorance to context is laughable here, tbh. But nah, none of Malgus feats/accolades suggest he can stomp the Dark Jedi. Try again, though. thumb up

Already addressed. Satele decades before her peak in KOTFE, could already fight and kill Dark Councilors (the most powerful Sith in the galaxy), Zallow could blitz the Empire's greatest Warriors/stomp Adraas, and Darach held off Vindican/Malgus, and Aryn Leneer performed better than all of them in her respective duels. So Malgus has a far more proven track record as a duelist than Kyle as of their respective peaks (False Emperor vs. LOTF Kyle Katarn)

Yes, a kind of style Malgus have never encountered can be a problem for him.

Perhaps but given Malgus has already slayed a Battlemaster, its not really that big of an issue especially when Malgus is inherently more skilled/powerful than Kyle

Don't really think that would matter much, lmao. It's not like Kyle isn't a beast in strength in is own right. Kicking a Vong far enough that he was protected from the blast radius of a thermal detonator (which should be around 18 feet, IIRC) is a pretty impressive strength feet honestly.

Sure it will given Malgus is far more stronger in striking which could wear Kyle down over time (As it did to Leneer), and Malgus can withstand even a few lightsaber strikes whereas, Kyle was downed after one. His physical advantages and durability advantages only compound the problems for Kyle in a prospective duel

Nah. Kyle is clearly more skilled from a technical standpoint, and nothing you posted here suggest otherwise.

Malgus killed a Battlemaster, and likely at least knows Djem So, Juyo, Jar kai, and is familiar with saber staffs. Technicality won't help especially when Malgus has every other advantage per feats

Malgus in all.