Originally posted by Petrus
Okay, I concede on that one. Maul didn't bully Death Watch. But that's about the only time in which he used his head other than his power.Still nowhere near Sidious' accomplishment.
Him telling that to Sidious is utter bullshit though, considering he only worked things out with his brains and his cunning with Death Watch. He didn't use Sidious' tactics for the rest. Also, he was clearly trying to deceive Sidious, anyway. So we can't take that at face-value.
I disagree. He did use Sidious's training. That part wasn't a lie. The lie was that he did it all to impress Sidious (although there may have even been a half truth in that).
Also remember when Pre-Vizsla wanted to take over Mandalore after only building a small army, and Maul was like "we're not ready yet, watch and learn." So Vizsla was the one who knew nothing but bullying, whereas Maul was showing him when to bully, and when to motivate by other means, and when to be patient.
Regardless Agreed that none of it comes close to what Sidious achieved. But then the guy who Sidious trained will learn something about building an Empire from him.
Originally posted by quanchi112
That does not matter as your point was a kick wins so regardless of him being all out he still lost according to your logic. You are attempting to use a double standard because your logic is awful and shitty. If someone kicks you and you don't stop fighting you aren't beaten. What planet do you live on in which one successful kick means a loss every single time.
Managing to land a kick means very little when your opponent isn't even trying his best, as opposed to landing a kick on one opponent while simultaneously fending off the other's attacks. Had Sidious wanted to kill them early on and make it a short encounter, he would've. There's a huge difference. You're just choosing not to see it.
Kenobi ended the fight against Savage and Maul ended the fight period. If you believe Kenobi ended the fight when he wanted I guess he wanted to get hit back by the force push because he was done fighting according to your red neck logic.A force push is an attack you fool. If he was done fighting he wouldn't attack him with a force power. Based off your logic force pushes don't count as attacks.
You don't seem to understand that Kenobi was fighting both simultaneously. He can't end the fight against Savage without ending it against Maul as well because if Savage gets hurt, Maul wouldn't have wanted to continue. Which is exactly what transpired. By cutting Savage's arm off he effectively ended the actual fight, and Maul Force-pushing him away happened because he was trying to get away from Kenobi, he was fleeing the battle. Seriously, your bias towards Maul knows no bounds. This is flat-out obvious.
Yes, Force push can be used as an attack. But it can also be used to push your opponents away... You know? To save yourself. Or to get off a dangerous situation.
This is an example of someone using Force Push to save yourself rather than to attack your opponent:
Maul used it in the same context, like it or not. He didn't win shit.
I am saying Windu didn't defeat Maul so it isn't a fact. Windu did defeat Sidious so it is a fact. Speculate all you want but you can't create facts.Lucas isn't there anymore and I said Maul lost. Abc logic has no bearing here.
Actually, there is nothing that contradicts Lucas' quote about these two, so we have no reason to dismiss it. And lol, it isn't using ABC, it's just being logical. The fact that you're having a difficult time accepting this fact is an entirely different matter. It is a conclusion I reached based on facts and feats, something you're just not doing at all.
Maul is faster
Lmao.
He's definitely not faster.
and more physically powerful without the force
And this is relevant how, exactly...?
so he's got Sidious beat there.
Except that they both are Force-users, so... Moot point. 😕
He also has better body posture
Rofl, can't believe you're using that as an argument.
Maul survived a great fall being cut in half whereas Sidious just died from a fall alone. Evidence >>>>your fanboyism.
You're calling me out on fanboyism? Irony at its best.
And I don't see how that's even relevant. You're literally fishing outside the pond to find something in which Maul can beat Sidious. Let me rephrase my words: Sidious is Maul's superior in ever aspect relevant to combat, intellect or power.
Untrue as he clearly manipulated the deathwatch to achieve his goals and challenged Pre Vizsla to one on one combat to rise to control. He broke free and rose to a height of power because he's clever.
I've already conceded that Maul did use something more than power and bullying to conquer Mandalore. It still didn't take too much brains to achieve it, and it wasn't nearly as cunning, manipulative or impressive as what Sidious did to achieve his goals. I'm not saying he's dumb, I'm saying he doesn't hold a candle to Sidious.
Maul survived his huge error while Sheev died like a *****. Advantage:Maul.
You keep avoiding the point. I never argued that Sidious didn't commit fatal errors in judgment, I argued Maul also did, making your argument essentially hypocritical. You still haven't provided an actual response. Not that it matters, because considering Maul almost got killed by a Padawan [as impressive as he was, still a Padawan] by choosing to play around with his lightsaber instead of finishing him off. If that's not a fatal error in judgment, I don't know what is.
Originally posted by PetrusLanding a kick that doesn't stop or slow down your opponent doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. Your argument reeks of double standards as I have clearly shown. Your own speculative nonsense isn't important here. Only the facts are and they support my reasoning while yours is torn to shreds under close scrutinization.
Managing to land a kick means very little when your opponent isn't even trying his best, as opposed to landing a kick on one opponent while simultaneously fending off the other's attacks. Had Sidious wanted to kill them early on and make it a short encounter, he would've. There's a huge difference. You're just choosing not to see it.You don't seem to understand that Kenobi was fighting [B]both simultaneously
. He can't end the fight against Savage without ending it against Maul as well because if Savage gets hurt, Maul wouldn't have wanted to continue. Which is exactly what transpired. By cutting Savage's arm off he effectively ended the actual fight, and Maul Force-pushing him away happened because he was trying to get away from Kenobi, he was fleeing the battle. Seriously, your bias towards Maul knows no bounds. This is flat-out obvious.Yes, Force push can be used as an attack. But it can also be used to push your opponents away... You know? To save yourself. Or to get off a dangerous situation.
This is an example of someone using Force Push to save yourself rather than to attack your opponent:
Maul used it in the same context, like it or not. He didn't win shit.
Actually, there is nothing that contradicts Lucas' quote about these two, so we have no reason to dismiss it. And lol, it isn't using ABC, it's just being logical. The fact that you're having a difficult time accepting this fact is an entirely different matter. It is a conclusion I reached based on facts and feats, something you're just not doing at all.
Lmao.
He's definitely not faster.
And this is relevant how, exactly...?
Except that they both are Force-users, so... Moot point. 😕
Rofl, can't believe you're using that as an argument.
You're calling me out on fanboyism? Irony at its best.
And I don't see how that's even relevant. You're literally fishing outside the pond to find something in which Maul can beat Sidious. Let me rephrase my words: Sidious is Maul's superior in ever aspect relevant to combat, intellect or power.
I've already conceded that Maul did use something more than power and bullying to conquer Mandalore. It still didn't take too much brains to achieve it, and it wasn't nearly as cunning, manipulative or impressive as what Sidious did to achieve his goals. I'm not saying he's dumb, I'm saying he doesn't hold a candle to Sidious.
You keep avoiding the point. I never argued that Sidious didn't commit fatal errors in judgment, I argued Maul also did, making your argument essentially hypocritical. You still haven't provided an actual response. Not that it matters, because considering Maul almost got killed by a Padawan [as impressive as he was, still a Padawan] by choosing to play around with his lightsaber instead of finishing him off. If that's not a fatal error in judgment, I don't know what is.
] [/B]
False. He took Savage out of the fight with an injury. He made him a liability but this has no bearing on Maul who clearly demonstrated the fight was over with his force push. Or do you believe Kenobi wanted to just injure savage and then just walk away after that strike.
So when Vader force pushed Tano he just wanted to be rid of her so the force push was more or less a loss. Your logic is bad. I guess when Maul force pushed and disarmed Kenobi in A Phantom Menace that was Maul losing according to your logic as well.
Force push is always an attack you idiot. It is always going to push someone backward. Yoda force pushed Sidious etc.
He didn't kill Kenobi but he bfrd him which means battle field removal.
Lucas isn't the end all be all so it has no bearing. It's just his opinion but only the facts matter not opinions, sport.
Maul is faster without the force. I already said this. Sidious has greater force abilities.
Palpatine is weaker when he isn't using the force.
Force isn't always at play.
Posture matters.
False. Concession accepted but feel free to prove it. Being an unknown threat and decades to achieve your goals with far greater resources is less impressive considering the degree of difficulty and the time span.
So you concede. Good.
Maul didn't die though but Palpatine was killed by a one handed, weaponless cyborg who was just soundly beaten by Luke. Sidious died Maul survived. Advantage: Maul.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Landing a kick that doesn't stop or slow down your opponent doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. Your argument reeks of double standards as I have clearly shown. Your own speculative nonsense isn't important here. Only the facts are and they support my reasoning while yours is torn to shreds under close scrutinization.
The circumstances are completely different. If Sidious toying around with them is exactly the same to you as the Kenobi fighting for his life ferociously and effectively, you really don't know what you're talking about. Palpatine received a kick while playing around with them, Maul received a kick while attempting to kill/injure Kenobi as he was simultaneously fending off Savage. Is that seriously the same thing to you?
A kick doesn't mean Kenobi > Maul overall, and I actually never argued that. It just means Kenobi was pushing Maul back as he couldn't penetrate Kenobi's defenses, and thus, at that moment, out-dueling both of them in a state of focus and determination he's had only few times.
False. He took Savage out of the fight with an injury. He made him a liability but this has no bearing on Maul who clearly demonstrated the fight was over with his force push. Or do you believe Kenobi wanted to just injure savage and then just walk away after that strike.
It definitely has bearing, especially because during the whole fight Maul couldn't once penetrate Kenobi's defenses. Kenobi was holding them off both, simultaneously. The real question is, do you believe Maul wouldn't have TK'd/utilized Force powers during their duel if he could? I mean, why would he use that Force Push at the very end of the fight, coincidentally when Savage was out of the game? Maul realized Kenobi had the upper hand, so he decided to push him away in order to flee, which is exactly what they do afterwards. It's as simple as that.
So when Vader force pushed Tano he just wanted to be rid of her so the force push was more or less a loss. Your logic is bad. I guess when Maul force pushed and disarmed Kenobi in A Phantom Menace that was Maul losing according to your logic as well.
You're not getting the point at all, and you're twisting my words. I said a Force Push can indeed be used as an attack, but in some cases [like the example I provided] it can be used as a defensive counter or as a means to remove yourself from a difficult situation. Which is what Maul used it for. Your argument was:
"A force push is an attack you fool. If he was done fighting he wouldn't attack him with a force power"
And I proved you wrong, because I demonstrated it's not always used as an attack.
Force push is always an attack you idiot. It is always going to push someone backward. Yoda force pushed Sidious etc.
It's not always an attack, it's always a Force power, which isn't the same. Or was Kenobi using it as an attack when he pushed back Durge's shots...? I literally just provided you an example in which Force Push isn't used as an attack, and you just toss it aside because it trumps your argument.
Btw, keep it down with the personal insults. No need to get aggressive or angered at the fact your arguments are shit.
Lucas isn't the end all be all so it has no bearing. It's just his opinion but only the facts matter not opinions, sport.
lol, so the creator of the SW saga making a statement about a character he invented has no bearing...? A statement which, incidentally, is never contradicted, btw. It sure as hell holds more ground than anything you could ever think of in regards to Maul's standing compared to Windu's, until proven otherwise. And considering you have absolutely no evidence that Maul is on Windu's level, I suggest you don't comment further on this matter if you don't want to look like a fool.
Maul is faster without the force. I already said this. Sidious has greater force abilities.Palpatine is weaker when he isn't using the force.
Force isn't always at play.
When the two characters are Force-users, the Force is always at play... Because, you know, it's actually a part of them. As in, it's always present.
But just for the hell of it, I'm going to indulge you on this.
Who cares about those times when Palpatine isn't using the Force? You're essentially saying Maul is stronger than Sidious at those times when he is pretending to be a weakass, fragile politician. Well, kudos. 👆
Posture matters.
It definitely mattered when Sidious destroyed Maul and his brother, didn't it...?
False. Concession accepted but feel free to prove it. Being an unknown threat and decades to achieve your goals with far greater resources is less impressive considering the degree of difficulty and the time span.
It honestly cracks me up a bit when you say stuff like 'concession accepted'.
When you consider not one Sith actually managed to achieve what Sidious did, while on the other hand conquering a single planet and taking over a couple criminal organizations is something pretty much most powerful Sith could accomplish, it puts things into perspective, doesn't it?
It's also put into perspective when you consider that Sidious would've been able to do exactly what Maul did [and a lot more], with much more ease. Because, you know, he's more powerful, more intelligent and more cunning. Unless you don't agree he is, which would be pretty stupid.
And Maul's incredibly impressive deed was torn to pieces mere months/days after he accomplished it, whereas Sidious' masterfully executed conquering feats put him in power for over 15 years.
But sure, it's comparable. 👆
Maul didn't die though but Palpatine was killed by a one handed, weaponless cyborg who was just soundly beaten by Luke. Sidious died Maul survived. Advantage: Maul.
Kek, you keep avoiding my actual argument because you know you have not rebuttal. That's nice.
Oh, you're using a Voldemort gif again? Concession accepted.
Originally posted by PetrusThat doesn't matter and that's just an opinion. That matters is the kicks and you clearly use a double standard with the typical crazy justification as to why it's different.
The circumstances are completely different. If Sidious toying around with them is exactly the same to you as the Kenobi fighting for his life ferociously and effectively, you really don't know what you're talking about. Palpatine received a kick while playing around with them, Maul received a kick while attempting to kill/injure Kenobi as he was simultaneously fending off Savage. Is that seriously the same thing to you?A kick doesn't mean Kenobi > Maul overall, and I actually never argued that. It just means Kenobi was pushing Maul back as he couldn't penetrate Kenobi's defenses, and thus, at that moment, out-dueling both of them in a state of focus and determination he's had only few times.
It definitely has bearing, especially because during the whole fight Maul couldn't once penetrate Kenobi's defenses. Kenobi was holding them off both, simultaneously. The real question is, do you believe Maul wouldn't have TK'd/utilized Force powers during their duel if he could? I mean, why would he use that Force Push at the very end of the fight, coincidentally when Savage was out of the game? Maul realized Kenobi had the upper hand, so he decided to push him away in order to flee, which is exactly what they do afterwards. It's as simple as that.
You're not getting the point at all, and you're twisting my words. I said a Force Push can indeed be used as an attack, but in some cases [like the example I provided] it can be used as a defensive counter or as a means to remove yourself from a difficult situation. Which is what Maul used it for. Your argument was:
[B]"A force push is an attack you fool. If he was done fighting he wouldn't attack him with a force power"
And I proved you wrong, because I demonstrated it's not always used as an attack.
It's not always an attack, it's always a Force power, which isn't the same. Or was Kenobi using it as an attack when he pushed back Durge's shots...? I literally just provided you an example in which Force Push isn't used as an attack, and you just toss it aside because it trumps your argument.
Btw, keep it down with the personal insults. No need to get aggressive or angered at the fact your arguments are shit.
lol, so the creator of the SW saga making a statement about a character he invented has no bearing...? A statement which, incidentally, is never contradicted, btw. It sure as hell holds more ground than anything you could ever think of in regards to Maul's standing compared to Windu's, until proven otherwise. And considering you have absolutely no evidence that Maul is on Windu's level, I suggest you don't comment further on this matter if you don't want to look like a fool.
When the two characters are Force-users, the Force is always at play... Because, you know, it's actually a part of them. As in, it's always present.
But just for the hell of it, I'm going to indulge you on this.
Who cares about those times when Palpatine isn't using the Force? You're essentially saying Maul is stronger than Sidious at those times when he is pretending to be a weakass, fragile politician. Well, kudos. 👆
It definitely mattered when Sidious destroyed Maul and his brother, didn't it...?
It honestly cracks me up a bit when you say stuff like 'concession accepted'.
When you consider not one Sith actually managed to achieve what Sidious did, while on the other hand conquering a single planet and taking over a couple criminal organizations is something pretty much most powerful Sith could accomplish, it puts things into perspective, doesn't it?
It's also put into perspective when you consider that Sidious would've been able to do exactly what Maul did [and a lot more], with much more ease. Because, you know, he's more powerful, more intelligent and more cunning. Unless you don't agree he is, which would be pretty stupid.
And Maul's incredibly impressive deed was torn to pieces mere months/days after he accomplished it, whereas Sidious' masterfully executed conquering feats put him in power for over 15 years.
But sure, it's comparable. 👆
Kek, you keep avoiding my actual argument because you know you have not rebuttal. That's nice.
Oh, you're using a Voldemort gif again? Concession accepted.
[/B]
A kick is a kick which didn't defeat either guy who was kicked. That is the point. You exaggerated one Kenobi kick because you're a fanboy.
A force push prevented Kenobi from continuing to press his brother. He overcame his defenses. Maul force lashed him out of the area which he wanted to do. Victory goes to Maul.
It is always an attack which drives the person back. Your double standards surfacing up is a moot point.
A force push is always an attack. It might not have the same result but it's always an attack. That's the point which you have no recourse other than to concede.
My point wasn't whether he is on his level or not. Windu never beat Maul. That's a fact. He beat Sidious which is a fact. Quit being upset over facts and citing an opinion of a guy who doesn't own the rights to Star Wars anymore.
The force isn't always in play unless they concentrate. That's the point. If they are just asleep or not paying attention the force will not enhance anything. Concession accepted.
Greater force powers. That's all. Posture still matters.
Less resources, a known threat, less time is more impressive with more resources, an unknown threat, and more time. That's logical no matter what your fanboyism tells your brain.
Originally posted by Darth ThorYou clearly didn't read my argument then. Quit crying because we know how weakling Vader and dumbass Palpatine have perished. In the end they were weak.
I wonder how Quanchi's Only argument which is "Maul survived, Vader and Palpatine died" will hold up when Maul, you know, dies. And most probably before the OT begins.
Originally posted by quanchi112
That doesn't matter and that's just an opinion. That matters is the kicks and you clearly use a double standard with the typical crazy justification as to why it's different.
It obviously matters. Why the hell wouldn't it matter if Sidious wasn't even trying his best, as opposed to Kenobi and the Maul Bros? How's that even the same thing?
A kick is a kick which didn't defeat either guy who was kicked. That is the point. You exaggerated one Kenobi kick because you're a fanboy.
I never said a kick means the kicked is defeated. I said it means he is being [briefly] out-dueled, which makes it impressive because he was simultaneously fending off Savage from the other end.
I actually said I have Maul slightly above Kenobi overall. Learn to read or pay more attention to my posts, whichever applies to your situation.
A force push prevented Kenobi from continuing to press his brother. He overcame his defenses. Maul force lashed him out of the area which he wanted to do. Victory goes to Maul.
I've tried to explain this several times now, and you fail to comprehend the situation. You didn't answer my questions. Honestly, it's so obvious that it shouldn't even be a debate. The fact that you think that last Force Push means Maul is the victor shows how incredibly biased you are.
It is always an attack which drives the person back. Your double standards surfacing up is a moot point.
You conveniently ignoring the evidence I provided regarding this particular subject is getting laughable at best. There is no double standard.
A force push is always an attack. It might not have the same result but it's always an attack. That's the point which you have no recourse other than to concede.
Read above.
My point wasn't whether he is on his level or not. Windu never beat Maul. That's a fact. He beat Sidious which is a fact. Quit being upset over facts and citing an opinion of a guy who doesn't own the rights to Star Wars anymore.
lol, that's just you being pretty butthurt over the fact that Windu > Maul. It pleases me.
The force isn't always in play unless they concentrate. That's the point. If they are just asleep or not paying attention the force will not enhance anything. Concession accepted.
So you just proved Maul is better than Palpatine while pretending to be the weak, fragile politician. Or when he's asleep. Congratulations. 👆
Greater force powers. That's all. Posture still matters.
Exactly how does posture matter if Sidious is more skilled or powerful?
Less resources, a known threat, less time is more impressive with more resources, an unknown threat, and more time. That's logical no matter what your fanboyism tells your brain.
Originally posted by Petrus
It's also put into perspective when you consider that Sidious would've been able to do exactly what Maul did [and a lot more], with much more ease. Because, you know, he's more powerful, more intelligent and more cunning. Unless you don't agree he is, which would be pretty stupid.