When does an ability not become standard and when is it?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Exposing a logical fallacy is a petty insult or a taunt now? Do you even know what a double-standard is?

No, your point was that only the best of the Sith should be able to use Lightning (you just attempted to change the goal posts again). And Dooku is among the best of the Sith. Hence, he should be able to use Lightning.

That's all there is to it. I don't know why you're trying to cry over split milk - I already accepted your lightsaber point as a valid one. This one's been debunked. Just move on.

I don't perceive Count Dooku to be among the best of the Sith. There, I said it.

My perception of "one of the greatest Sith" is different from yours. Thank you.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It doesn't matter what your interpretation of the quote is.

Then who's interpretation does matter, if mine does not?

Of all characters shown in history, Dooku's probably in the top two dozen.

Correction. He is one of the most exposed Sith Lords - other than Vader. He does well because he's operating in a time were combat among the Jedi isn't close to it's apex, and he can pick apart their blaster wielding forms with his dueling-centric one.

That, and various other attributions and displays of his Force mastery, qualifies as sufficient to learn the likes of Force Lightning. [/B]

Correction, his very generic skills of Force power qualifies him to be a somewhat powerful Sith Lord.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Is it necessary to post such remarks? What are you trying to prove here? That you are free from bias and such?

The fact that you're feeling insulted over debate jargon that wasn't even remotely intended to slight you is downright pitiful. Grow thicker skin and stop getting defensive every time you trade points with someone.

Nowhere did I even remotely imply that I or anyone else was free of bias either. Your non sequitur attempts at deflection are laughable. Can we have a discussion without your emotions flaring up?

I don't perceive Count Dooku to be among the best of the Sith. There, I said it.

Of course you don't. It's too bad that sources make it abundantly clear that he is.

Regardless, you've suggested before that only Palpatine-level Force users should be able to use Lightning. So Dooku wouldn't be classified there regardless, but I suppose you're fine with only the Son, Palpatine, Abeloth & possibly Vitiate using Lightning - no one else.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Then who's interpretation does matter, if mine does not?

How about an interpretation that reads directly into what the quotes are saying, instead of attempting various lowballs to try and circumvent a clearly portrayed message?

Correction. He is one of the most exposed Sith Lords - other than Vader. He does well because he's operating in a time were combat among the Jedi isn't close to it's apex, and he can pick apart their blaster wielding forms with his dueling-centric one.

I won't bother debating this, but it's too bad that Lightning and Force powers don't have anything to do with this. So I guess I won't have to anyway.

Correction, his very generic skills of Force power qualifies him to be a somewhat powerful Sith Lord.

Generic skills? How many Sith Lords can claim to have liberally studied from Sith archives at the peak of amassed Sith knowledge? How many Sith have a background as a Jedi Master with a near-unrivalled knowledge of the Force before they became Sith Lords and studied from Sith knowledge at its peak? How many Sith have shown Doppelganger? How many Sith have displayed feats that are a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters? How many Sith easily resurrect swarms of zombies on a whim or create barriers of Lightning?

Of course, you'd elect to use the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" approach, but you can't prove that this stuff is generic when it's clearly made out to be the opposite. But I'll await a response that is hopefully well distanced from any appeals to ignorance.

Originally posted by SunRazer
How about an interpretation that reads directly into what the quotes are saying, instead of attempting various lowballs to try and circumvent a clearly portrayed message?

That might be the case if the holy scriptures were dictating facts, they are not. The sacred texts can also claim that Coleman Trebor is a capable fighter, yet the objective truth of the mater is that he was killed and killed rather easily at that. The only reasonable assertion following such events, is that's he's not a capable fighter at all, and like most of the PT Jedi, he demonstrates trouble swatting blaster fire.

I won't bother debating this,

So it's a concession?

but it's too bad that Lightning and Force powers don't have anything to do with this. So I guess I won't have to anyway.

Lightning might have had some prestige back in 2003, when only half of the known Sith Lords could use it. It seemed to be rather impressive then. But as far as Legends are concerned, sparkles is a mere manifestation of hatred that can be summoned under intense situes of stress, as with Jacen Solo against the Vong or with Cade's various creative muses. It is clear that not much study or refinement went into those. And as Jedi philosophy changes, even they start to use their own expressions of lightning.

Generic skills? How many Sith Lords can claim to have liberally studied from Sith archives at the peak of amassed Sith knowledge?

That is incorrect. More knowledge was lost than Bane's Sith could ever recover, and some more of that gets stifled by Gravid. Besides, how much access does Dooku have to said knowledge? It can't be too extensive given his amazement at Anddedu's Holocron, something Bane discarded readily, having not learned anything new from deciphering it.

How many Sith have a background as a Jedi Master with a near-unrivalled knowledge

*proof needed*

of the Force before they became Sith Lords and studied from Sith knowledge at its peak?

The Ancient Sith were the originators of whatever knowledge Bane and his Sith could get their hands on. Yet, through various events in the history of the Galaxy, a tremendous amount of said knowledge was lost and destroyed. If this isn't apparent enough for you, here are those holy scriptures reiterating what I just said:

"Locked within the recesses of that Sith Holocron - the only Sith Holocron, as far as anybody knows - are the forgotten histories and lore of the Sith, dating back a hundred thousand years and more"

- Odan-Urr on the Sith Holocron he discovered on the abandoned Sith ship during the Great Hyperspace War, The Essential Guide to the Force

"King Adas's holocron was stolen during the Jedi Purge, and it seems the remaining holocrons were destroyed before Palpatine or his agents could claim them"

- Tionne Solusar, The Essential Guide through the Force

"According to records, the Sith Lord might have gained greated knowledge of their subjects from an ancient Sith library temple on Krayiss II. Apparently, this library housed Holocrons and artifacts about the Sith species, but ruins on Krayiss II have yet to be identified as a library and its collections may have long turned to dust"

- Seviss Vaa, The Essential Guide through the Force

"Perhabs the greatest loss during that period [The Great Hyperspace War] was Veeshas Tuwan an ancient Sith library on the Sith world Arkania."

- Seviss Vaa, The Essential Guide through the Force

[...]

And of course we have Sidious hating the Jedi for laying waste to so many Sith artifacts while pointing out that Vaa doesn't...

"mention the destruction of the planet Malachor V and its Sith academy"

- Darth Sidious, The Essential Guide to the Force

How many Sith have shown Doppelganger?

Only him it seems. But I imagine it's prestige looses a few notches, when you consider that an entire religious faction can use it - the Fallanassi.

How many Sith have displayed feats that are a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters?

And yet, he wasn't able to dismantle masters who were actually prepared for such advances, as when Kenobi could simply deflect Dooku's Force attacks by raising his lightsaber.

How many Sith easily resurrect swarms of zombies on a whim

Didn't happen.

or create barriers of Lightning

Didn't happen.

Of course, you'd elect to use the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" approach, but you can't prove that this stuff is generic when it's clearly made out to be the opposite. But keep up the appeals to ignorance.

As above, there's evidence to prove why this stuff isn't special, evidence to prove why Dooku's knowledge of Sith lore isn't on par with the Rule of Two's originator and why his already limited pool of knowledge, is more limited than the average sith warrior who could just stroll into Malchor V before it's destruction. What ever intentions were behind Dooku's character become irrelevant, when presented with the facts.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
That might be the case if the holy scriptures were dictating facts, they are not.

They do unless you can provide something of substance to contradict them.

The sacred texts can also claim that Coleman Trebor is a capable fighter, yet the objective truth of the mater is that he was killed and killed rather easily at that.

Killed whilst unsuspecting and by the same bounty hunter who murdered several Jedi with his bare hands in quick succession. The Grand Master during Threat of Peace got caught off-guard and killed mid-fight by a lesser bounty hunter, as opposed to being off-guard when the fight occurred.

The only reasonable assertion following such events, is that's he's not a capable fighter at all, and like most of the PT Jedi, he demonstrates trouble swatting blaster fire.

And Jedi in your beloved OR era don't?

So it's a concession?

More of an expression of exasperation over the topic, which I've lost interest in debating.

Lightning might have had some prestige back in 2003, when only half of the known Sith Lords could use it. It seemed to be rather impressive then.

Cheapened as it is, defending against it with the Force is still something that "is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi masters".

But as far as Legends are concerned, sparkles is a mere manifestation of hatred that can be summoned under intense situes of stress, as with Jacen Solo against the Vong or with Cade's various creative muses. It is clear that not much study or refinement went into those. And as Jedi philosophy changes, even they start to use their own expressions of lightning.

Which doesn't exactly bring down somebody who can summon it on a whim when not even remotely in a state of intense stress or anger.

That is incorrect. More knowledge was lost than Bane's Sith could ever recover

We'll see what examples you manage to conjure.

and some more of that gets stifled by Gravid.

Sure, and some more than gets rediscovered or is encompassed by sources that are available to the Banite Sith, as I'll explain later.

Besides, how much access does Dooku have to said knowledge?

We know he's studied the Dark Holocron & Andeddu's holocron, and he has a shelf of Sith holocrons in his private retreat in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous.

It can't be too extensive given his amazement at Anddedu's Holocron, something Bane discarded readily, having not learned anything new from deciphering it.

Bane didn't discard it. He sweated himself using the Force to probe the holocron's contents because he found it of value (at least, Essence Transfer). Dooku saying that it's fascinating doesn't amount to his knowledge being limited, especially since he was trying to entice Quinlan Vos, as I recall.

*proof needed*

I forgot you don't take Insider as Canon. But I don't care.

With a near unrivalled knowledge of the Force combined with formidable skill with a lightsaber, Dooku was virtually indomitable.

-- Insider #109

The Ancient Sith were the originators of whatever knowledge Bane and his Sith could get their hands on. Yet, through various events in the history of the Galaxy, a tremendous amount of said knowledge was lost and destroyed. If this isn't apparent enough for you, here are those holy scriptures reiterating what I just said:

How quickly you can revert to using sources that you dismissed earlier as "not dictating facts". Perhaps you're running out of options or evidence?

The Banite Sith had access to numerous ancient Sith sources (Revan's holocron, Nadd's holocron, Sadow's holocron, Andeddu's holocron, Sorzus Syn's holocron scriptures, etc.) and multiple sources confirm that even Dooku embraced "ancient Sith teachings".

"Locked within the recesses of that Sith Holocron - the only Sith Holocron, as far as anybody knows - are the forgotten histories and lore of the Sith, dating back a hundred thousand years and more"

As far as the Jedi know, which isn't much by that point. The Jedi aren't a usable measuring source for the knowledge that the Sith possess. Odan-Urr was obviously unaware of Adas' holocron, Sadow & Nadd's holocrons, probably the dozens of Sith holocrons that were found just decades later by KotOR II, etc.

Heck, Jedi in the PT era thought they had access to Sorzus Syn's holocron for about a millennium, yet it was a facsimile and they failed to realize that all along.

"King Adas's holocron was stolen during the Jedi Purge, and it seems the remaining holocrons were destroyed before Palpatine or his agents could claim them"

- Tionne Solusar, The Essential Guide through the Force

"According to records, the Sith Lord might have gained greated knowledge of their subjects from an ancient Sith library temple on Krayiss II. Apparently, this library housed Holocrons and artifacts about the Sith species, but ruins on Krayiss II have yet to be identified as a library and its collections may have long turned to dust"

- Seviss Vaa, The Essential Guide through the Force

It's funny that you dismiss so many quotes as being the flawed opinions of historians and then fall back on such things because you obviously have nowhere else to go. And you're choosing quotes with specifically low modality and subjective wording. That's laughable.

I'm not sure whether I should call you out on your double standards or the fact that you think that various other ancient Sith sources of knowledge were lost to the Banite Sith when it clearly wasn't. These Jedi historians are indeed wrong on this.

And of course we have Sidious hating the Jedi for laying waste to so many Sith artifacts while pointing out that Vaa doesn't...

[b] "mention the destruction of the planet Malachor V and its Sith academy"

- Darth Sidious, The Essential Guide to the Force[/b]

It's too bad that Darth Revan already uncovered the teachings of Malachor V per the Revan novel and included them in his holocron, as Darth Bane suggests in Book of Sith, doesn't it?

Only him it seems. But I imagine it's prestige looses a few notches, when you consider that an entire religious faction can use it - the Fallanassi.

Umm, these religious factions tend to study arcane and esoteric arts, and that doesn't mean many Sith know of the techniques at all. Looks like you've hit a dead end again, huh?

And yet, he wasn't able to dismantle masters who were actually prepared for such advances, as when Kenobi could simply deflect Dooku's Force attacks by raising his lightsaber.

Which has nothing to do with my point, since the quote in question refers to repelling Lightning with the Force, not a lightsaber. And we all know Dooku has ragdolled Obi-Wan before.

And yet again, you've reached a cul-de-sac.

Didn't happen.

Didn't happen.

Yes, they did, in The Final Showdown.

As above, there's evidence to prove why this stuff isn't special, evidence to prove why Dooku's knowledge of Sith lore isn't on par with the Rule of Two's originator and why his already limited pool of knowledge, is more limited than the average sith warrior who could just stroll into Malchor V before it's destruction. What ever intentions were behind Dooku's character become irrelevant, when presented with the facts.

Your evidence is deeply flawed and conflicts with many of your own previously established stances. But if you want to attempt to prove that the average Sith warrior on Malachor V knows more than Dooku, you're welcome to.