Fernus vs. Superboy Prime

Originally posted by quanchi112
Fernus owned the shit out of Superman.

Wasn't even the first time. The second time they met, even with prep, the entire league was owned badly. The first time they met, he was tanking a bloodlusted WW's attacks.

The third time they met, Fernus even KOed Superman (note the second panel):
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/VsJla19.jpg.

As for abhi's earlier assertion that Superman was trying to talk him down, I can just as easily claim Superman was bloodlusted:

But wait, Abhi will claim that later on, Superman was telling him to stand down, and giving him one last chance!

But even LATER on, Superman himself says to leave NOTHING standing, and they all try to take FErnus apart, whilst Manitou/Major/Atom free him on the mental plane (something SBP cannot do). It does absolutely nothing. He's back, fully formed, a few panels later:

Edit: note the use of Superman's HV in the second to last panel. Directly after saying 'Leave nothing standing, people'. He was cutting loose. With his HV. And didn't do what J'onn did. Guess J'onn cutting loose > Superman cutting loose.

Fernus is not the same as MM. He is more powerful, IMO. And yes, Fernus AND MM were both more powerful than Superman under that writer. Kelly, I think. He writes an awesome Superman, but not an especially powerful one.
Kelly's Fernus and MM may exceed his Superman, but they don't necessarily exceed other writers' Superman depictions.
Of course this is Superboy Prime, who definitely exceeds Superman. The main problem is that even following the board's full capacity rules, and allowing for the fact that Fernus will use TP as much as is effective, it's pretty hard to gauge how TP will affect Superman or Superboy Prime. Again, using Superman as a reference, Fernus's TP is probably too much for Kelly's Superman (iirc), but Kelly's Superman isn't necessarily the benchmark for Superman's TP resistance. As for Superboy Prime, I don't recall TP being used on him. But there was ample opportunity for it to be used. But I realize that could just be PIS, rather than the characters legitimately considering it and rejecting it because they thought it wouldn't work. OTOH, using the full capacity rule, imagine Prime using his speed all the time.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Fernus is not the same as MM. He is more powerful, IMO. And yes, Fernus AND MM were both more powerful than Superman under that writer. Kelly, I think. He writes an awesome Superman, but not an especially powerful one.
Kelly's Fernus and MM may exceed his Superman, but they don't necessarily exceed other writers' Superman depictions.
Of course this is Superboy Prime, who definitely exceeds Superman. The main problem is that even following the board's full capacity rules, and allowing for the fact that Fernus will use TP as much as is effective, it's pretty hard to gauge how TP will affect Superman or Superboy Prime. Again, using Superman as a reference, Fernus's TP is probably too much for Kelly's Superman (iirc), but Kelly's Superman isn't necessarily the benchmark for Superman's TP resistance. As for Superboy Prime, I don't recall TP being used on him. But there was ample opportunity for it to be used. But I realize that could just be PIS, rather than the characters legitimately considering it and rejecting it because they thought it wouldn't work. OTOH, using the full capacity rule, imagine Prime using his speed all the time.

I don't subscribe to different writers' Supermen being different. Superman is Superman, Loeb's Supes is the same as Kelly's etc. More importantly, he's the same as what I use in the forum fight.

Fernus' TP against Superman? Took him seconds to mindrape him whilst simultaneously attacking the rest of the League (and Krypto). Despite them being ready for Fernus.
http://static7.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/126197/2568975-2319336_jla__87_pg02_super.jpg

Now, SBP against telepathy? With his speed? Fernus was taking Flash, Superman and WW out, again, simultaneously. Their reaction feats stack up pretty well against SBP. Wally has his greatest speed feat in that exact same story arc, with that Korean city (if we want to play the writer game). He was unable to react to Fernus, who was able to hide from them.

Edit: In addition, SBP has a mass of psychological weaknesses. Flashes, darkness, his gf /earth dying....all of which can be exploited by Fernus. Who exploited John's memories:

In summary: Fernus has the powers - but more importantly, he has USED them in the manner I am postulating. He mindrapes, uses your memories, can heal from incredible physical damage, and can deal it out as well.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Superman burst right through Fernus. Almost everything Fernus did was either telepathy or off-panel. Except for his fight with Plas.

😆 hysterical crylaugh

No. J'onn wishes he were near Superman, let alone superior. You can go back to your Lala Fantasy Land with your "I don't have to defend my argument" mental gymnastics to avoid ever backing your case.

Just..... 😆

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
a

And bursting through.....did absolutely jack to Fernus. He was literally stomping Superman into the ground. Even Plas did nothing really. Batman's Hail Mary play was only temporary.

He didn't even care about the fight, and was only doing it to distract the League:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3042725-fernus4xb7.jpg

Not to mention, he still has the other powers a Martian has. Including intangibility:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/VsJla21.jpg

This is how a weaker Martian fights SBP WITH solar armour:
http://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2650414-1.png

If Fernus gets hit, its because he wants to get hit.

Edit: note the use of Superman's HV in the second to last panel. Directly after saying 'Leave nothing standing, people'. He was cutting loose. With his HV. And didn't do what J'onn did. Guess J'onn cutting loose > Superman cutting loose.

Hey we all get our laughs where we can.

Originally posted by Surtur
Though I also agree with Pillow Biter in that Prime has these wtf powers. He operates on a high level and I could of sworn telepathy was attempted and didn't work.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I don't subscribe to different writers' Supermen being different. Superman is Superman, Loeb's Supes is the same as Kelly's etc.

There's only one Superman, but you can't just rely on one writer's take to decide how powerful he is. Kelly writes a Superman who is roughly equal to other top tiers at DC, and less powerful than MM. Kelly is also the only writer of Fernus, who he depicts as more powerful than Superman. So that's our only direct, head to head data point. But that's still not our only data point. You have to factor in the indirect evidence.

Fernus exceeding Kelly's rather weak Superman (at least in those arcs) doesn't mean he'd exceed portrayals of Superman who can beat down on MM and other top tiers at the same time.

There is only one Superman, but no one writer gets the right to definitively peg his power level.

Originally posted by Pillow Biter
There's only one Superman, but you can't just rely on one writer's take to decide how powerful he is. Kelly writes a Superman who is roughly equal to other top tiers at DC, and less powerful than MM. Kelly is also the only writer of Fernus, who he depicts as more powerful than Superman. So that's our only direct, head to head data point. But that's still not our only data point. You have to factor in the indirect evidence.

Fernus exceeding Kelly's rather weak Superman (at least in those arcs) doesn't mean he'd exceed portrayals of Superman who can beat down on MM and other top tiers at the same time.

There is only one Superman, but no one writer gets the right to definitively peg his power level.

True - but indirect data points can become extremely murky to untangle. Deathstroke has tangled with some writers' interpretations of Flash, who has taken on Death in other interpretations etc etc.

I generally prefer to use head to head comparisons. Under Kelly, Flash evacuated those 500,000 civilians from the N Korean city. A reaction feat that puts SBP's in the pale. He was still unable to outspeed Fernus.

So far, the only argument I have realistically seen for SBP is either 'he finds a way', or Abhi's assertions. Neither of which really have much stacking up for it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
a

And bursting through.....did absolutely jack to Fernus. He was literally stomping Superman into the ground. Even Plas did nothing really. Batman's Hail Mary play was only temporary.

He didn't even care about the fight, and was only doing it to distract the League:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3042725-fernus4xb7.jpg

Not to mention, he still has the other powers a Martian has. Including intangibility:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/VsJla21.jpg

This is how a weaker Martian fights SBP WITH solar armour:
http://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2650414-1.png

If Fernus gets hit, its because he wants to get hit.

That time, but Fernus eventually gets destroyed after being manhandled by J'onn. Did he tire out? Was it J'onn coming out? We don't know. The only other thing we have to gauge is the Burning Martian that Vandal Savage fought.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wasn't even the first time. The second time they met, even with prep, the entire league was owned badly. The first time they met, he was tanking a bloodlusted WW's attacks.

The third time they met, Fernus even KOed Superman (note the second panel):
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/VsJla19.jpg.

As for abhi's earlier assertion that Superman was trying to talk him down, I can just as easily claim Superman was bloodlusted:

But wait, Abhi will claim that later on, Superman was telling him to stand down, and giving him one last chance!

But even LATER on, Superman himself says to leave NOTHING standing, and they all try to take FErnus apart, whilst Manitou/Major/Atom free him on the mental plane (something SBP cannot do). It does absolutely nothing. He's back, fully formed, a few panels later:

Edit: note the use of Superman's HV in the second to last panel. Directly after saying 'Leave nothing standing, people'. He was cutting loose. With his HV. And didn't do what J'onn did. Guess J'onn cutting loose > Superman cutting loose.

Between controlling Krypto and Superman and Wonder Woman's words, it's looking like telepathy played heavily into that second encounter.

Originally posted by riv6672
Hey we all get our laughs where we can.

So what exactly does me laughing at you saying J'onn>Superman have to do with DarkSaint's posts for Fernus? Unless you ignore Fernus and J'onn weren't the same being, that is.

Originally posted by Delta1938
That time, but Fernus eventually gets destroyed after being manhandled by J'onn. Did he tire out? Was it J'onn coming out? We don't know. The only other thing we have to gauge is the Burning Martian that Vandal Savage fought.

Between controlling Krypto and Superman and Wonder Woman's words, it's looking like telepathy played heavily into that second encounter.

That Martian was already dying, IIRC. But the circumstances of Fernus' defeat, wasn't the JLA's physical destruction of his body. It was also MM taking back control, which SBP cannot replicate.

I think it's TP/TK too (Superman is spinning like a top there), but my post was in reply to quan. I guess, indirectly, to Pillow too. That even when the JLA were ready and prepped for Fernus, he still tooled them, showing his reflexes are pretty top-notch.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That Martian was already dying, IIRC. But the circumstances of Fernus' defeat, wasn't the JLA's physical destruction of his body. It was also MM taking back control, which SBP cannot replicate.

I think it's TP/TK too (Superman is spinning like a top there), but my post was in reply to quan. I guess, indirectly, to Pillow too. That even when the JLA were ready and prepped for Fernus, he still tooled them, showing his reflexes are pretty top-notch.

Yeah, he was injured.....by the ship crash. 😱 And he took back control of I believe it was his own "psychic realm" but not sure if that had to do with Fernus losing control of himself. It was weird, as J'onn came when Fernus was trying to spawn.

Didn't say he only used telepathy.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wasn't even the first time. The second time they met, even with prep, the entire league was owned badly. The first time they met, he was tanking a bloodlusted WW's attacks.

The third time they met, Fernus even KOed Superman (note the second panel):
//i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/VsJla19.jp

As for abhi's earlier assertion that Superman was trying to talk him down, I can just as easily claim Superman was bloodlusted:

But wait, Abhi will claim that later on, Superman was telling him to stand down, and giving him one last chance!

But even LATER on, Superman himself says to leave NOTHING standing, and they all try to take FErnus apart, whilst Manitou/Major/Atom free him on the mental plane (something SBP cannot do). It does absolutely nothing. He's back, fully formed, a few panels later:

[img]http://i.imgur.com/k6YfMIT.jp
[img]http://i.imgur.com/YC1MG9d.png

Edit: note the use of Superman's HV in the second to last panel. Directly after saying 'Leave nothing standing, people'. He was cutting loose. With his HV. And didn't do what J'onn did. Guess J'onn cutting loose > Superman cutting loose.

Fernus>>Superman.

👆

Fernus stomps.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
a

And bursting through.....did absolutely jack to Fernus. He was literally stomping Superman into the ground. Even Plas did nothing really. Batman's Hail Mary play was only temporary.

He was affecting everyone with TP. Without TP in play even John Stewart kicked his ass.

He didn't even care about the fight, and was only doing it to distract the League:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/3042725-fernus4xb7.jpg

Not to mention, he still has the other powers a Martian has. Including intangibility:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/VsJla21.jpg

That would've come so handy when J'onn vaporized his ass.

If you are going to argue Martian Vision is more powerful than HV, I'm gonna laugh at your face.

Or the Guardians defeated entire White Martians race.

This is how a weaker Martian fights SBP WITH solar armour:
http://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2650414-1.png

Yes, because that's all the time J'onn fight SBP. Let's look, shall we?

Fight 1. Oneshotted.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/29216447/Infinite_Crisis_03_page_30_31.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/29216448/Infinite_Crisis_03_page_32.jpg.html

Fight two. Again oneshotted.

Just after that "One Punch" J'onn fans so like to throw around.

Heck, even Superboy took more damage than that.

Fight 3.

A depowered SBP manhandled the shit out of J'onn like he was his personal whore.

If Fernus gets hit, its because he wants to get hit.

Or SBP can use his faster than Wally West level speed to blitz Fernus and vaporize his ass. After all the characters are at full capacity.

http://i.imgur.com/hlVL6IR.png

Right?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Or SBP can use his faster than Wally West level speed to blitz Fernus and vaporize his ass. After all the characters are at full capacity.

http://i.imgur.com/hlVL6IR.png

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wasn't even the first time. The second time they met, even with prep, the entire league was owned badly. The first time they met, he was tanking a bloodlusted WW's attacks.

The third time they met, Fernus even KOed Superman (note the second panel):
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/VsJla19.jpg.

As for abhi's earlier assertion that Superman was trying to talk him down, I can just as easily claim Superman was bloodlusted:

But wait, Abhi will claim that later on, Superman was telling him to stand down, and giving him one last chance!

But even LATER on, Superman himself says to leave NOTHING standing, and they all try to take FErnus apart, whilst Manitou/Major/Atom free him on the mental plane (something SBP cannot do). It does absolutely nothing. He's back, fully formed, a few panels later:

Edit: note the use of Superman's HV in the second to last panel. Directly after saying 'Leave nothing standing, people'. He was cutting loose. With his HV. And didn't do what J'onn did. Guess J'onn cutting loose > Superman cutting loose.

Yet, SBP treated J'onn like a joke everytime they met.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That Martian was already dying, IIRC. But the circumstances of Fernus' defeat, wasn't the JLA's physical destruction of his body. It was also MM taking back control, which SBP cannot replicate.

I think it's TP/TK too (Superman is spinning like a top there), but my post was in reply to quan. I guess, indirectly, to Pillow too. That even when the JLA were ready and prepped for Fernus, he still tooled them, showing his reflexes are pretty top-notch.

There is no fire to amp him here.

Originally posted by Galan007
This scene has always blown me away, as it implies that Wally would have to absorb the entire Speed Force just to outrace Superboy. ohhh

Originally posted by abhilegend
Under Kelly, even J'onn was able to reform after getting sliced into little pieces. Fernus wasn't anything special in that regard.

Yet, SBP treated J'onn like a joke everytime they met.
J'onn didn't take control of his body. He created a second body. And as soon as the fire which was amping Fernus were put out, J'onn vaporized him completely.

There is no fire to amp him here.

Never said he was special. I said Superman was not holding back, and despite the entire League not holding back, was unable to put him down (unlike J'onn, who did).

Fernus treated Supes like a joke, J'onn is not Fernus (as you have said before) and Superman is not SBP.

No fire to amp him? I thought SBP was going to use his HV? That.....creates heat, which sets fire to things, no?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Never said he was special. I said Superman was not holding back, and despite the entire League not holding back, was unable to put him down (unlike J'onn, who did).

Because he was amped by the fire. Did you read the story or just looked at the respect thread on comicvine.

Fernus treated Supes like a joke, J'onn is not Fernus (as you have said before) and Superman is not SBP.

Because of TP. Not through strength or power.

No fire to amp him? I thought SBP was going to use his HV? That.....creates heat, which sets fire to things, no?

Nice try. So does Martian Vision. Yet, J'onn vaporized him easily with it.

Originally posted by Delta1938
So what exactly does me laughing at you saying J'onn>Superman have to do with DarkSaint's posts for Fernus? Unless you ignore Fernus and J'onn weren't the same being, that is.