Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, carth ignoring everything important like usual. Windu won't have his vapaad amp or his crazy levels of rage to draw upon in this fight. Nor is the Outlander throwing the fight.Standard Windu struggles with early Ventress, gets punked by Maul and at his best is merely a rival of Dooku.
I mean, even if Sidious threw the fight, the fact that Mace can hang with Sidious... at all is a testament to his ability.
Give the Outlander the amps Windu had and they could as well.
Like I said, Windu needed all his skills to get the edge over Ventress, he performed poorly against Maul, he lamented his own skills against Depa and showed no advantage over Bulq in sabers. The idea that Windu is a legendary, unbeatable duelist based on the RotS duel needs to die.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Because his showings and accolades are clearly superior?Being place on "tier 9" with the Yoda's and Palpatine's of the worldld isn't anything Arcann can hope to achieve.
They aren't. Beating Sidious is the only one and there were several factors in his favor. Other than that his dueling feats aren't better than the Hero's in any way, not are his accolades.
That ranking system is completely obsolete.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Because his showings and accolades are clearly superior?Being place on "tier 9" with the Yoda's and Palpatine's of the worldld isn't anything Arcann can hope to achieve.
We don't know if Arcann is a well-known character outside BioWare and how authors perceive him in general. However, in-game conversations give us the impression that Arcann and Vaylin are stronger than any Jedi (and/or Sith) in the galaxy and Valkorion perceives them as a grave threat to his plans. This should tell you something about them.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
We don't know if Arcann is a well-known character outside BioWare and how authors perceive him in general. However, in-game conversations give us the impression that Arcann and Vaylin are stronger than any Jedi (and/or Sith) in the galaxy and Valkorion perceives them as a grave threat to his plans. This should tell you something about them.
Sidious perceived an untrained Luke Skywalker as a grave threat to his plans, too.
"He could destroy us."
"The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."
So...
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fantastic argument. 🙄
Right back at ya...
Originally posted by Trocity
Sidious perceived an untrained Luke Skywalker as a grave threat to his plans, too."He could destroy us."
"The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."
So...
A large number of Force-users did not even register on the radar of Valkorion. Those who did, were dealt with.
My point is that Valkorion perceives the duo of Arcann and Vaylin as a significantly greater threat to his plans than any Jedi and/or Sith in the galaxy. Revan was an exception.
Originally posted by Nephthys
They aren't. Beating Sidious is the only one and there were several factors in his favor. Other than that his dueling feats aren't better than the Hero's in any way, not are his accolades.That ranking system is completely obsolete.
Yeah, his accolades are. Countless times have Mace been stated, or implied to have close parity with Yoda in lightsaber skill, with some sources even listing him as the "best" in the order.
And no, they weren't "several" favors on his side --- the Vaapad "amp" is evidence to the sheer potential, and ceiling Mace is capable of unleashing in combat as a duelist.
No, it's not "obsolete" just because you want it to be so. I'm taking Nick's opinion over some internet random any day of the week.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, his accolades are. Countless times have Mace been stated, or implied to have close parity with Yoda in lightsaber skill, with some sources even listing him as the "best" in the order.And no, they weren't "several" favors on his side --- the Vaapad "amp" is evidence to the sheer potential, and ceiling Mace is capable of unleashing in combat as a duelist.
No, it's not "obsolete" just because you want it to be so. I'm taking Nick's opinion over some internet random any day of the week.
Even Mother Talzin managed to push Mace Windu back in a melee-oriented clash.
Windu's performance against Palpatine represents his finest hour. It doesn't implies that Windu would steamroll any other opponent. Alternate theory is that Palpatine threw the fight to gain sympathy of Anakin Skywalker.
Concentrate on the bigger picture. Your opinion is grounded in a single fight, which is problematic.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is a matter of perception. I don't recall Valkorion perceiving an untrained Force-user as a grave threat to his plans.A large number of Force-users did not even register on the radar of Valkorion. Those who did, were dealt with.
My point is that Valkorion perceives the duo of Arcann and Vaylin as a significantly greater threat to his plans than any Jedi and/or Sith in the galaxy. Revan was an exception.
Fair. Though I wasn't trying to say Arcann is unimpressive, my point was that that line of thinking is flawed. That Valkorion perceives him to be above any other Jedi or Sith as a threat doesn't then auto place him as an equal, or superior, to Mace Windu as a duelist. That's all.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, his accolades are. Countless times has Mace been stated, or implied to have close parity with Yoda in lightsaber skill, with some sources even listing him as the "best" in the order.
So has the Count. It usually just refers to technical, not combative skill.
Agreed with most of your post, though.
Originally posted by Trocity
Fair. Though I wasn't trying to say Arcann is unimpressive, my point was that that line of thinking is flawed. That Valkorion perceives him to be above any other Jedi or Sith as a threat doesn't then auto place him as an equal, or superior, to Mace Windu as a duelist. That's all.
You should concentrate on the dialogue between Valkorion and Outlander in Chapter 1 and Chapter 12. Valkorion reminds the Outlander again and again that he is outgunned in relation to his children in spite of being the strongest Jedi in the galaxy. This is why Valkorion binds himself to the Outlander (to assist him in dire situations) and eventually empowers him because he has other matters to attend to.
Chapter 12, in particular, is very telling.
Valkorion's children cut a swath through the ranks of Jedi and Sith in various battles and survivors chose to retreat. Satele Shan witnessed the massacre first hand and lost all hope.