Originally posted by thesithmaster
Yeah, the one who has a statement that is contradicted by the movie itself and several other sources.No, Mace can't compete with Sidious.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Absolutely no source indicates mace can't compete with sids. The only thing that suggests otherwise would be a literal interpretation of a quote that blatantly contradicts multiple primary sources
The movie shows Sidious holding Mace at saberpoint seconds into the fight. Sidious has his blade pointed at Mace's chest, Mace can't parry the stab. Sidious has won this. Sidious, however, let Mace parry which makes obvious that Sidious could have killed Mace within seconds- this is movie only. If you can compete with someone that fight needs to last more than a minute. That's competition. Being at your opponent's mercy within seconds is not competition.
And it has been stated Mace could not even react to Sidious. Mace only parried three blows due to randomly putting his saber in front of his body and having Fisto's help. Mace can, at best, parry two blows from Sidious.
And even amped Mace could have been finished off by Sidious with Lightning. Which makes it obvious that Sidious could have instantly fried Mace had he felt like it.
Mace Windu cannot compete with Darth Sidious. George Lucas' word is overridden by the movie itself, and the movie itself disagrees with Lucas.
Mace is held at saber point after more than a few seconds sith master. And yes, sids can win, which was never disputed anywhere, that doesn't change that mace can compete, not to mention I see no reason to think the vapaad boost was a one time thing given that we've seen mace retain his "inner darkness" earlier in the novel and Mace's boost resulted from fully using vapaad, something which I see no reason to think he wouldn't do afterwards given he no longer is afraid of the dark.
Regardless, vapaad and mace throwing the fight only explain why mace can match sids, not why he can compete which he certainly can given the word of god
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Mace is held at saber point after more than a few seconds sith master. And yes, sids can win, which was never disputed anywhere, that doesn't change that mace can compete, not to mention I see no reason to think the vapaad boost was a one time thing given that we've seen mace retain his "inner darkness" earlier in the novel and Mace's boost resulted from fully using vapaad, something which I see no reason to think he wouldn't do afterwards given he no longer is afraid of the dark.Regardless, vapaad and mace throwing the fight only explain why mace can match sids, not why he can compete which he certainly can given the word of god
Just timed. It was fifteen seconds. Being at your opponent's mercy in fifteen seconds is not competing. "Word of god" does not override the movie. The movie is the highest source of canon, and if the creator of the movie contradicts the movie itself (which was created along with other people) then the movie is more important. The movie contradicts the notion that Mace can compete with Sidious, which is enough, and the other sources are just the cherry on top.
Well yes, if we assume that wasn't just bad cherography(dooku also missed two opportune moments to kill yoda if we eyeball yoda vs dooku jensaraai style) in that specific fight mace would have died a bit soon due to overextending himself a swing. Given Mace borders on Sids level as an 8 bordering nine and Lucas's statement, it's plausible in a second encounter mace doesn't make that mistake and that doesn't happen. Not to mention it's perfectly arguable bapaad hadn't kicked in, and I'll repeat we have no reason his ability to use it fully or his inner darkness would just go away.
Lucas's statement was general and not specific to this particular fight. Mace can compete with sids in general, how well may fluctuate and is up for debate but that he can compete isn't disputable.
Regardless my point was about what it says for mace's force abilities or at least his abilities to deal with and compete regardless of force abilities. He clearly can't just be one or two shotted by the most powerful sith in history which is rather impressive given sid's power. And if he can compete with sids in spite of his force abilities, what makes ppl think Kim or Ulic can stop a saber based victory with the force? As it is, it's in character for then to duel.
I think we all agree who wins in a duel
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Well yes, if we assume that wasn't just bad cherography(dooku also missed two opportune moments to kill yoda if we eyeball yoda vs dooku jensaraai style) in that specific fight mace would have died a bit soon due to overextending himself a swing. Given Mace borders on Sids level as an 8 bordering nine and Lucas's statement, it's plausible in a second encounter mace doesn't make that mistake and that doesn't happen. Not to mention it's perfectly arguable bapaad hadn't kicked in, and I'll repeat we have no reason his ability to use it fully or his inner darkness would just go away.Lucas's statement was general and not specific to this particular fight. Mace can compete with sids in general, how well may fluctuate and is up for debate but that he can compete isn't disputable.
Regardless my point was about what it says for mace's force abilities or at least his abilities to deal with and compete regardless of force abilities. He clearly can't just be one or two shotted by the most powerful sith in history which is rather impressive given sid's power. And if he can compete with sids in spite of his force abilities, what makes ppl think Kim or Ulic can stop a saber based victory with the force? As it is, it's in character for then to duel.
I think we all agree who wins in a duel
Sorry, when did Dooku have the chance to kill Yoda? Only when Yoda was distracted lifting the crane. Not during the duel. Mace didn't just overextend, Sidious had the ability to kill Mace within fifteen seconds which absolutely debunks Lucas' statement about Mace competing with Sidious.
Mace is an eight, and thus he's at least solidly below Sidious who is a nine (solid tier difference is there as per Gillard). And Vaapad amp had not kicked in. Obviously amped Mace can compete with Sidious. Standard Mace (the Mace in this fight) cannot as per the movie+two or three other sources.
And Mace cannot compete with Sidious. The movie debunks it. The notion that unamped Mace can compete with Sidious is plainly wrong. The movie overrides Lucas. In sabers at least.
Given the movie debunks Lucas' statement, and what we see in the movie matters more than anything Lucas says, that statement cannot be applied- at least to sabers. And given it's been proven to be false, it cannot be used. Sidious could have killed an Amped Mace with Lightning. Normal Mace would have died even more quick, given Amped Mace was losing quick. And someone with feats equal to those of Windu (Dooku) and a duo with superior feats to Windu (Maul+Savage) have been Force one-shotted by Sidious. There is nothing that suggests Sidious can't one-shot Windu with the Force. Actually, the novel somewhat supports the notion Sidious can instantly end Windu with the Force.
Sidious>>>>Windu, and Mace cannot compete with him unless he is amped.